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Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

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Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#81

Post by [deleted] »

eulo__ wrote: post #72
lqdc13 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa…

I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women. People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#82

Post by throwawayable »

mc32 wrote: post #41
Realist1337 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. Sounds like you've already pre-inclined towards a guilty party then, before you even heard evidence from both sides. And if there is no evidence, the man is in a world of trouble. I have personally witnessed a man in the office be fired for "sexual harassment" shortly after escalating an accounting…

I don't doubt that can happen --there are vindictive, retributive people out there. That kind of person would not need a 1:1 or drive home, etc., to bring forward an accusation.

This is true, but it would be more difficult for the mud to stick if it hard for that person to prove you spent large amounts of time alone with them.

note: I don't believe that many people would be vindictive like that, but the impact of such an accusation is so large means that even a very small chance of it happening is something worth protecting oneself against.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#83

Post by [deleted] »

jlos wrote: post #45
mc32 wrote: post #3

What are people so uptight about? Not that I understand why, but it makes some sense if religious people are somehow shy to that, but atheists? Are people afraid of perception or afraid of misinterpretation or afraid physically, are there that many unhinged people out there? You can totally make friends with people of the same sex you are generally sexually attracted to and it does not mean or have to end up in a wei…

It helps to understand features of conservative religious communities: 1) sex, marriage, and family are still inseparably linked and are believed to be foundational to life and human flourishing. Thus, breaking marital vows reflects a profound failure of character. 2) individuals within Convervative Christian have a deep mistrust of their own capacity to resist moral failures. From my conversations, the individual is…

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#84

Post by cbanek »

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

Why would a woman need to be alone with you? If someone wanted to, they could just fabricate it without being alone with you (since you said they need no evidence).

On the flip side, as a woman I could say being alone with a man, he's stronger than me so he could kill or rape me whenever he wanted, so never be alone with a man?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#85

Post by [deleted] »

vkou wrote: post #65
home_boi wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The default outcome in he-said-she-said, no other proof is no action from HR. There needs to be more justification to this statement. What happens in HR is basically a black box to most people.

Our society, our justice system, and our corporate culture has an enormous bias in favor of harassers, abusers, and rapists. There is enormous pressure to marginalize, ignore, and punish victims, to ignore accusations, and to protect aggressors. See - practically every single instance of rape/harassment/abuse that has hit the public eye. The consistent pattern in all of them is how many victims had to come forward, h…

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#86

Post by detaro »

speedplane wrote: post #42
swiley wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the drink thing is definitely inappropriate.

There are a lot of ways it could be made appropriate, e.g., group setting, a long work-history together, very equal power dynamic. But the idea of a superior bringing out a female for a drink one-on-one is almost certainly a recipe for disaster. Go for lunch, coffee, or a game of golf instead.

At least as it's presented in the article, the question wasn't about a superior or just a work colleague at all, but about any man/woman?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#87

Post by cbanek »

tlogan wrote: post #74
cbanek wrote: post #4

I'm really amazed that the data is that close for "having a work meeting." (25% of women say inappropriate vs 22% of men) That's a lot higher than I was expecting. It makes me wonder why as well. Is it just "inappropriate" (what I imagine Mike Pence thinks)? Does one side think the other side is trying to do something inappropriate or is trying to lead into something? At least in many jobs I've had, 1:1's were basica…

I'm also surprised by such a large percentage. I suppose that the problem of having a "work meeting" is that some workplaces are very uneven - i.e., management position is only hold by men.

I think the questioning might have also been strange. How would you even phrase it?

"Do you think it's appropriate for a man and a woman to have a private work meeting?"

Sounds like a way to lead to no.

But if you asked, is it fine for two people to have a private work meeting together, and (follow up) what if they were different genders?

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#88

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

eulo__ wrote: post #72
lqdc13 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa…

I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women. People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

That's very much not my experience.

Some people - not many, but enough to be a concern - are simply toxic. They're not reactively toxic. They're as toxic as they can get away with being with as many people as possible.

They don't respond to deterrents or analyse career or personal risks rationally because they just can't help themselves.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#89

Post by tnecniv »

lqdc13 wrote: post #70
eulo__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa…

What is advancement defined as and how is it different from harassment / assault? The link does not provide a definition.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#90

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

mc32 wrote: post #69
throwawayable wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when there is no evidence one way or the other, you're saying you'd believe the accuser. This pretty much supports the grandparent's statement. I know of a woman who has made a successful career of extorting "settlements with mutual confidentiality agreements" out of a succession of positions as a PA to multiple high level executives, with each exec settling for tens of thousands to avoid this person leveling dama…

I don' think you understood what I said. My point is that a woman (or man) will not come out of a 1:1 or a drive home or talks over dinner and take an ambiguous statement or thing they thought they saw or heard and run to HR. People are rather loath to make the wrong conclusion and will give other the benefit of the doubt. Now, bad, vindictive, extortionists, etc., will not need you to take them out for drinks or hav…

The problem - of course - is that bad, vindictive, etc, people can appear completely normal.

They can even be unusually charming and disarming.

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