Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex • Hacker News Board

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#71

Post by sillysaurus3 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:44 AM UTC

cbanek wrote: post #56

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not really about trust. It's just business and mutual protection. I'm not sure which way to feel on the issue, but it's hard to deny that the recently reported harassment happened while both the victim and the abuser were alone together, or shared a private channel of communication. If you eliminate this aspect, you might eliminate the harassment along with it. That seems like a positive outcome. In practice, th…

If you're worried about mutual protection, it would seem that you don't trust the person. You also seem to imply that harassment is more about having opportunities to harass, rather than a person wanting to commit harassment and waiting for the right opportunity. If someone wants to do something, I figure they could be very patient in waiting for their time. Also, how would you know until everyone is already uncomfor…

I think one aspect that makes it workable is that it's about the power imbalance, not simply being alone with someone. It's ok to date a coworker. It's not ok to express or receive interest in someone who works under you. So it's not that everyone needs to travel in groups of 3, but rather that the people who have power over you are held to a different standard.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#72

Post by eulo__ » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:45 AM UTC

lqdc13 wrote: post #70

eulo__ wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such an irrational fear, like worrying about getting hit by lightning on the way to the shops. Also goodluck convincing anyone that I sexually assaulted someone. People wouldn't be able to take you seriously after a claim like that.

How is it irrational? According to the UN, 40-50% of women in Europe experienced unwanted sexual advancement at work[1]. That is, statistically speaking without breaking it down by industry, close to half of women at your workplace are getting harassed and could report the perpetrator. For comparison, lighting kills 0.000017% of the population per year. [1] http://endviolence.un.org/pdf/pressmaterials/unite_the_situa…

I think if you're worried about woman calling you out for being a dick, you're probably worried because you're a dick to women.

People aren't malicious in my experience unless you give them cause to be.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#73

Post by newrand81902 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:46 AM UTC

Realist1337 wrote: post #33

mc32 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

>> People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. Sounds like you've already pre-inclined towards a guilty party then, before you even heard evidence from both sides. And if there is no evidence, the man is in a world of trouble. I have personally witnessed a man in the office be fired for "sexual harassment" shortly after escalating an accounting…

Sure. I know one person who claimed sexual assault to try to get a better business deal. But in my experience, the opposite is way more common. Among my wife's circle of friends, several have been literally raped without consequence for the perpetrator. Nevermind things like groping, now you're looking at a 100% hit rate.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#74

Post by tlogan » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:46 AM UTC

cbanek wrote: post #4

I'm really amazed that the data is that close for "having a work meeting." (25% of women say inappropriate vs 22% of men) That's a lot higher than I was expecting. It makes me wonder why as well. Is it just "inappropriate" (what I imagine Mike Pence thinks)? Does one side think the other side is trying to do something inappropriate or is trying to lead into something? At least in many jobs I've had, 1:1's were basica…

I'm also surprised by such a large percentage. I suppose that the problem of having a "work meeting" is that some workplaces are very uneven - i.e., management position is only hold by men.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#75

Post by vacri » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:48 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #54

vacri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remind me never to air my concerns in public again. If losing a couple of imaginary internet points is all it takes to retract your comments... how strongly do you hold those opinions in the first place? Downvotes just mean disagreement. If more people disagree than agree with you, well, welcome to the ghosted text. But so what? It just means that your opinion is a minority opinion amongst the people who cared enou…

I use downvotes to signify that content was off-topic or against the site guidelines. I am guilty of upvoting due to agreement or if someone put a lot of effort into a articulate response. But. While I might be a minority with these beliefs, shouldn't people be offering me counter-arguments instead of downvoting? It feels bad to not have a dialog. "You're wrong imo" is not a very useful reply; and that's all you get…

Flagging is for when things are against site guidelines. Downvotes just mean disagreement; it's been that way since forever, and pg has stated that downvotes-for-disagreeing is fine on HN. They're just imaginary internet points anyway.

The stupid thing is that it just takes one person disagreeing in order to grey out your text - that's an HN fault, not a human fault.

> shouldn't people be offering me counter-arguments instead of downvoting?

Probably, but there's a lot of things people should be doing which they don't do.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#76

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:51 AM UTC

speedplane wrote: post #59

aiyodev wrote: post #20

I'm surprised so many men in here are comfortable being alone with women. You've given another person the power to put you in prison and destroy your entire life at any time without any evidence. All they have to do is make the accusation. You'll lose your job. You'll probably lose your family. You'll probably lose your freedom. It's not worth the risk.

The vast vast majority of people would never fabricate something so heinous. For the very tiny percentage of people who would, it wouldn't matter if you were ever alone with them or not. Your concerns are unfounded.

[deleted]

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#77

Post by xenadu02 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:51 AM UTC

Spivak wrote: post #61

mc32 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your PoV. I would say it would be extremely rare for a woman (or man) to make baseless accusations from uncertain interpretations. People who bring forward accusations are typically people who've had the same untoward thing done to them repeatedly. That said, one has to acknowledge there are genuinely malicious people --but they typically have a pattern and it will not be their first time making false ac…

I'm not even considering the case where the woman is being malicious; even in the case a misunderstanding her feelings could be completely valid. For example, she could take me buying her a drink as an advance when I'm really just getting the next round. Or I could be venting or speaking passionately about something and have it come off as scary; I'm a pretty big dude and I have a hearing problem so I talk too loud s…

Then just say that's what you're doing. Ask her if she feels uncomfortable and say you want to have a productive but professional working relationship.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#78

Post by learc83 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:52 AM UTC

When I was in college I was a team lead at Best Buy for a while. I was in charge of a mostly female team of cashiers, and I was alone with them in the cash office frequently while they counted their tills.

I made one of the cashiers mad by reprimanding her, and she decided to get back at me by claiming that I grabbed her and shook her while we were in the cash office.

I never touched her, and luckily we still had video from the day she claimed it happened. After my manager reviewed the tape with her, it was clear she was lying, so she dropped her claim.

Despite what we might wish, society treats men and women differently, and women are viewed as being particularly vulnerable. If a man had accused me of something similar, no one would have cared. When a woman accused me, without that video, I would have been fired.

It's a complex situation. In many cases, people don't believe women when they really are assaulted, or they're force to share the blame when they're blameless. But in other cases the pendulum swings too far in the opposite direction. Like many things it's primarily a function of the relative power of the victim and the accuser.

A powerful man can get away with harassing much less powerful women. But a relatively powerless man will quickly find himself in a world of hurt with just the hint of an allegation. A company doesn't want to fire their CEO without hard proof (or at least a lot of bad press), but they'll drop a low level employee quick just to avoid the slight possibility of looking like they aren't taking sexual harassment seriously.

I'm not going to let that experience keep me from being alone with a women at work--I don't think I'm very likely to run into another women like that again and avoiding being alone with a women in a modern workplace is just too difficult. But I do understand the rationale driving people to be cautious.

I do want to make it clear that I think that the vast majority of times when a women reports assault or harassment, they're telling the truth. But I do think that in some situations where we've started to completely shift the burden of proof to the accused (some employers, certain colleges etc..), we run the risk of creating perverse incentives and punishing an awful lot of innocent people.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#79

Post by Inconel » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:53 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #63

Inconel wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know it's not polite to ask about downvotes on HN but I'm also unsure why you where so quickly downvoted. I personally don't feel the same way you do, but I also don't think you said anything rude or outlandish. As a small counter to your post though, I've read some articles recently talking about the importance of general social networking and one on one mentoring in some professions with the point being made that…

Good response; I'm glad it worked out for your friend. I would agree that it might be a disadvantage for women, but conversely I would just make an effort to ensure there was _someone_ else with us, male or female. So instead of drinks 1:1 outside work, or a 1:1 meeting, It would instead be three people which mitigates both parties liability. I am a senior engineer, not a manager, but if I were a manager one on ones…

I think a policy of having more than one person present in these kinds of meetings, especially if they are off site or after working hours, is certainly a good way to mitigate any risk as well as ensure everyone is still receiving the support or mentorship they need.

As an aside, it's always nice to hear someone who recognizes they aren't a good fit to be a manager. I'm not sure I would be good at it either but it seems that even people who very obviously don't have the personality for it tend to jump at the opportunity.

Re: Not Just Mike Pence. Americans Are Wary of Being Alone with the Opposite Sex

#80

Post by dijit » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 6:53 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #68

dijit wrote: post #6

I seem to be the only person in the comments that agrees with the article. But I'm not American. I will absolutely not be alone with a female as a male if I can help it. One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. Conversely; as a male a female is quite likely weaker than I am, thus the risk to them is that I cause them injury or force them to do something. Which is a horrendous thought an…

I didn't downvote you, but your post is hyperbolic and creates barriers for women out of unrealized, unrealistic fear. In particular: > One accusation of ill-doing on my part and my life is essentially over. This flies in the face of of...well, just about everything, in most industrialized countries. Serial sexual harassers get away with it for a long time and men who out-and-out assault women do to; somewhere almost…

I get what you're saying. There are many examples of people doing shitty things and getting away with it; at the same time I work in Sweden; a country that has quite some sensitivity regarding what constitutes rape (strongly suggestive comments are legally rape).

It _might_ slide off me if someone accused me of something. But I really wouldn't put that to the test; at the same time. If you can mitigate the risk then why wouldn't you?

And again, the female perspective (that I could be abusive, hurtful or a rapist) is certainly enough to dissuade "alone time" for them, _especially_ if I, as a man, were able to get away with things like you were suggesting.