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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#351

Post by Latty »

daenz wrote: post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

Or he realized he has done something wrong and wants to be clear that's not who he wants to be?

I was out drinking with friends from my University course, back in the day, and made some statement like "uh, well don't be fags about it" - a hangover from my days at a boys only secondary school where "gay" was the most common term for bad and "fag" was the most common insult.

Now, I have no issues with people's sexuality and would never want to offend anyone - but I was drunk and years of using the term as a generic negative insult just lead to me using the term habitually. The issue was, it wasn't just my close friends, but a larger group of people I knew less well.

One of them made the point that he was Bi and didn't appreciate the comment, and I wanted to curl up and die - instantly I had to try and explain myself and apologise. How I acted didn't represent my views, it isn't who I want to be, and it's not how I'd want to interact with anyone. I put that guy - and anyone else there - in a shitty situation and while he was fortunately understanding, and spoke up about it, someone could have just heard me and felt a bit of rejection from the world.

Now, you can argue about the sincerity of this guy's apology, and how possible it is to repeatedly do something and do the things he did in the context he did, etc..., but there comes a point at which if the message is good - which this apology is - it's a flat statement that his behavior was wrong, flat out, which is the right place to start from at least, I think you have to give some level of benefit of the doubt.

People do fuck up. Consequences for that are fine, but you have to try to give people routes to hold up their hands and reject things they did, that has value.

To note, obviously my usage of the terms during my schooling years was just as wrong, but I was a child and it's harder to judge myself at that age because of the environment and lack of knowledge I had at the time. Something I still regret deeply though - it must have been incredibly hard to be gay with so much constant negativity surrounding it in that environment.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#352

Post by fatbird »

dllthomas wrote: post #339
fatbird wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming these guys see this as a problem. I suspect for most of them, the power issues are, erotically, the whole point. Why patronize a prostitute for make believe alpha male abuse of one's position when one has the real thing every day?

> Why patronize a prostitute for make believe alpha male abuse of one's position when one has the real thing every day? Because it's a lot less likely to get you in trouble (if we make it a lot less likely to get you in trouble).

Given the frequency with which VCs have gotten in trouble for this before this week, that doesn't seem like an important consideration.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#354

Post by solatic »

neutronicus wrote: post #315
coss wrote: post #259

Reading these comments makes me really depressed for the future of our society. Let me get this straight - 1. Don't go out with co-workers. 2. Don't make friends with co-workers. 3. Def. never drink with co-workers. Have we really become this sensitive? There's a voice in me that's screaming 'fuck off' to this kind of attitude. I can't quite articulate why it infuriates me so much.

Given the economic opportunities at stake, it's probably most equitable for the high-tech workplace to be stiff and formal, so that everyone involved feels equally dislocated from their comfort zone. If you're used to the workplace mimicking the conventions of subcultures you belong to, the transition will be a drag, but , if you're alienated from the dominant workplace subculture, probably a breath of fresh air.

> stiff and formal

Maybe people should wear suits and ties then. You know, to make it abundantly clear that the workplace is a stiff and formal environment.

Corporate leadership is responsible for setting tone in the workplace, and the ethos that has been paraded in Silicon Valley since its birth is that everyone is a friendly collaborator, that ideas and people flow freely from company to company, as if in a casual manner, and the dress code reflected that.

Turning anything in SV into "stiff and formal" goes against SV's cultural soul.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#355

Post by ebcode »

Asooka wrote: post #334
saghm wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you see them as people if they aren't being less professional in that setting? I'm very confused by this question. My view of whether someone is a person is not mitigated by them acting profession.

If you see them as people, you should be able to interact with them as fully-rounded people, including asking them out (once only, not being a persistent nagging asshole), complimenting their attire, telling them the latest gossip, in short - communicating your feelings, provided the feeling is mutual. Whereas in a professional setting, you aren't a person, you're filling a role and obeying protocol. It's a sliding s…

This might be the best summing up of the/our schizophrenic attitude towards professionalism (and work) that I've ever read. The words, "in a professional setting, you aren't a person," just nail it. Meanwhile, the corporation itself has the legal status of a person, and can now even claim to hold religious beliefs. Ergo, we could probably fix some of these issues in the valley with a few properly Gorean S Corps.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#356

Post by [deleted] »

danek wrote: post #324
atlih wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I understand that, but the power dynamic completely shifts when the powerful party shows interest. You might get yourself out of handcuffs by giving your or even a fake number if the powerful party is interested.

That's not an example of "shifting the power dynamic"

[deleted]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#357

Post by [deleted] »

chasing wrote: post #341
siliconc0w wrote: post #262

To make this a bit more abstract: Bob is a big wheel over at SomeCompany. Bob is outside work drinking with some friends, say Eve, and runs into Alice. Alice joins them and while she doesn't currently work for SomeCompany she indicates to Bob she would like to join. Bob, like most people, hangs out with a lot of people with similar interests/skill-sets/abilities. As the night wanes, Bob flirts with Alice. Alice decli…

I think you're right: Alice has established from the start that it's a professional relationship. Continuing to flirt with her is inappropriate. There's no work-life balance element to this: Bob's welcomed to try to get laid. But he should find someone else. Other fish in the sea. For better or worse, that's one of the trade-offs of being a "big wheel." You have to consider how your actions might affect a whole const…

[deleted]

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#359

Post by dang »

julianmarq wrote: post #258

> It's a qualified apology. I dislike how he not-so-subtly tries to justify his actions by painting a context that delegitimizes Sarah's claims. What claims were "deligitimized" and how did he do it? As for everything else you wrote I'll just say it must be awful living with such a misanthropic view but, hey, you do you.

Personal attacks are not allowed on HN, not anywhere and especially not in flamewar threads. We ban accounts that do this, so please post civilly or not at all in the future.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14680541 and marked it off-topic.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#360

Post by sangnoir »

Latty wrote: post #351
daenz wrote: post #24

Is it just me, or is committing public seppuku like this really necessary? If what he did was illegal, he should face prosecution. If he's compelled to apologize and admit his guilt, he should reach out to the people he actually wronged. This kind of public self-flagellation ("I'm such a creep. Please forgive me, world.") feels really over the top, phony, and symbolic.

Or he realized he has done something wrong and wants to be clear that's not who he wants to be? I was out drinking with friends from my University course, back in the day, and made some statement like "uh, well don't be fags about it" - a hangover from my days at a boys only secondary school where "gay" was the most common term for bad and "fag" was the most common insult. Now, I have no issues with people's sexualit…

> How I acted didn't represent my views, it isn't who I want to be, and it's not how I'd want to interact with anyone.

I'm sorry, but this does not make sense to me. Of course what you said and how you acted represented your views at the time. It wasn't who you wanted to be, but it was who you were. You absolutely used the term fag as an insult and you meant it.

I'm posting this not to judge you or be self-righteous about it, but in the hope of gaining some understanding. I have seen it happen far too many times: a person's racist/sexist words go viral on social media or in the press, and they reflexively publish "That is not my view or a reflection of who I am. Everyone who is close to me knows this". This disassociation puzzles me greatly. How is it that you have the conviction to do/say something and then disavow it when challenged?

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