Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society • Hacker News Board

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#161

Post by mdpopescu » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #69

EdSharkey wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government regulations created the twisted non-market for healthcare that exists in the united states. Pretty please don't sign us up for more government. You know there are 7 big health care providers in my state building spectacular facilities as fast as they can, and they don't have to compete with each other? There's no competition. Every pleb goes dutifully to the assigned provider his employer sends him to. You…

Reading your comment, it just occurred to me that I don't know if there is any country where healthcare works well without government intervention. We always talk about the USA vs. Europe, but I don't know if there are other examples that we can borrow. When you talk about market directed healthcare, do you have any example in mind?

I can only talk about the situation here in Romania.

State health care is "free" (that is, everybody pays 6.5% of their income as health insurance) and of very poor quality. You have to bribe everyone - doctors, nurses, cleaning people - in order to get any treatment.

Private health care is somewhat more expensive; you can either pay as needed (which is what I usually do) or you can buy private insurance. The lowest private insurance I know of is $3 / month; the highest I have heard of is about $300 / month. The latter includes emergency surgery in a foreign country (Germany or Switzerland, their doctors are considered better).

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#162

Post by mikeash » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

EdSharkey wrote: post #51

mikeash wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just get a job! Brilliant! Why don't all these poor people think of that?

Sarcastic, but you willfully lack imagination. There are urchins who choose not to work and do just fine. It's fairly straightforward to scam Social Security Disability for main income and then collect EBT, food stamps, and get some housing in the projects. It's not a great life, but it's a living, and there's plenty more help to pay for phone and utilities. If one is wicked, then they can sprinkle in some identity t…

What about all the poor people who want to work but can't find a job, or all the poor people who do work but just don't earn enough to stop being poor?

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#163

Post by metasean » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

haberman wrote: post #55

rndmize wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part of this is a fact? I'd argue this is literally the opposite of a fact - it's a model and a prediction based on it. Those are things that may be based on facts, but that in no way makes the theorized conclusion a fact. https://xkcd.com/605/

Nearly every statistical fact anyone ever cites does exactly the same thing. When a fact says something like "13% of people are poor," they don't investigate every single person and determine whether they are poor. They create what is intended to be a representative sample, then they create a model that extrapolates the sample set to the entire population. They predict that their sample is representative and that a m…

There's a day every decade where the U.S. Census does their best to get an accurate count of every human in the U.S. [0]

Combine that with the data from the correspondinc Apr 15th, and we should have something pretty close to a "poverty election day".

[0]: cell phone and spotty network made it too hard to look up a good source - please feel free to add them if you can)

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#164

Post by SamReidHughes » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

rrock wrote: post #152

humanrebar wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, it's private and for profit, but it's not market based. It's just a big ball of bureaucracy, unintended consequences, and corruption (at least in the sense that the system isn't following its intended purposes). If it were market based, there would be a trivially discoverable price for commodity operations and such. How much does it cost for a skin cancer screening in Topeka? It depends? Well, that's a routine…

"Golly, I may be having a heart attack. I think I should take a moment to shop around for a cardiologist, so I can get quality treatment for fair prices." Don't expect market forces to come to the rescue. It doesn't work that way.

It does for skin cancer screenings and most other care.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#165

Post by slackingoff2017 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:08 PM UTC

TheAdamAndChe wrote: post #90

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is me…

> ...do yourself a favor and visit some reputable cities in the sun belt. On an individual level this might make sense, but if everyone does this, it just amplifies existing problems. In the city you're leaving, inequality would just grow worse, there would be a brain drain, and family support structures would weaken. In the city you're going to, housing costs would go up, and pockets of area would be insulated from…

Do I care about the state more than myself and my family? No. I'm going to do what's best for us. Encouraging people to stay goes against their best interests.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#166

Post by slackingoff2017 » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

foldr wrote: post #108

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to consider a move to a happier place, the Midwest is not doing well these days. I moved from an economically depressed city in the midwest to a southern tech boomtown a few years ago and the difference in mood is striking. Everyone is new here, everyone is making good money. Remember how it was right before the housing crisis or before the dotcom bubble burst? That's how it feels here. The Midwest is me…

>everyone is making good money For some highly restrictive definition of "everyone". I think this statement kind of exemplifies the problem.

In cities with booming economies this is accurate. High income newcomers spend a lot of money which creates more jobs and raises wages for existing residents. Any long time residents that own property have newfound wealth, and local businesses thrive.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#167

Post by skywhopper » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

johngarrison wrote: post #149

jimnotgym wrote: post #100

For anyone who wants to investigate the connection between poverty and society further, I can highly recommend, Rutger Bregman's book 'Utopia for realists'. It is funny to see cases in history where well researched,cost effective and progressive social programs have been stopped due to plain prejudice from those in power. I keep hearing Ayn Rand mentioned these days. Reading those long tedious books can give you fodd…

Admirers of Rand making appeals to authority? That's an obvious contradiction to anyone who had even read one page of the cliff notes of her philosophy. Someone, you or they, are confused.

When they quote Rand's philosophy as a reason to do something, they are appealing to authority.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#168

Post by tcbawo » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #151

throwaway399 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my history is almost opposite while achieving similar results. However, I get bunched in the same group and expected to feel privileged and guilty. I grew up in another country and went to end of junior + high school in a US school in the inner city where nobody studied in my class except for me. 65% of the class never graduated. My parents, although very educated in our home country never paid for school and…

I'm very sorry to hear the trying circumstances in your youth... but I'm very glad that you did manage to break out of it and be successful. The solutions you suggest to changing culture will unfortunately definitely not work. If its one thing I've noticed, its that if you try to ban something it drives it underground and makes it even "cooler". I don't know what the solution is, but changing the culture like that ju…

I think you touched upon my original sentiment and that intimated by several others, which is that parents look out for their children and try to put them in the best situation. This is why we see competition to move into the best school districts, pricing many hard working and worthy families out. Unfortunately, we see this played out in irrational and societally negative ways like white flight. As a society, we lack role models which do not derive from a promotional/capitalistic agenda (ie. sports stars, musicians). Clustering people by socioeconomic status probably only serves to further deprive lesser privileged children of role models. There is no easy answer. Some solutions are known, but NIMBY is a powerful force.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#169

Post by droopyEyelids » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

dankohn1 wrote: post #155

brightball wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding Rand, I hear her referenced more by libertarian detractors than any actual libertarians.

Paul Ryan, the primary author of the House healthcare bill, gives out an Ayn Rand book to all of his interns [0]. Fountainhead and especially Atlas Shrugged are engaging works of science fiction. I recommend everyone read at least one. And then keep in mind this quote [1]: “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that…

Brad Keywell, the non-lefkofsky half of Lightbank (incubator for Groupon) also gives out Rynd books to his employees for christmas.

Re: Poverty is not a personal choice, but a reflection of society

#170

Post by brightsize » Sat, Jul 01, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

hueving wrote: post #135

ue_ wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many people who find the collectivisim/individualism distinction facile and inadequate, though. I feel you're making a point about ideology in general, however I can't see what's wrong with subscribing to a particular ideology, so long as you agree with it. The point is not to follow it dogmatically.

The point I was trying to make was that the discourse is so dogmatic it's as if people live in alternate universes. People can't even mention certain topics because the word you use to describe the topic reveals which "side" you are on (e.g. the "Muslim ban").

>(e.g. the "Muslim ban").

And "sanctuary cities".