Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble • Hacker News Board

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#221

Post by CogitoCogito » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:41 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #38

tuna-piano wrote: post #3

Some questions I'm thinking of in regards to this situation: -Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? -Britain seems to be standing up for Hong only lightly. Will they ever carry a bigger stick?[1] -What is the difference between Hong Kong/China relationship and the often criticized West Bank/Israel relationship? -Would the former colonies in Africa and Asia be in better hands if they were st…

> Who in the world does not agree that self-determination is good? Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you. Just look at the concept of the independence or real autonomy some day of Vojvodina or Transylvania. Besides blaming such talk on a Hungarian irredentist plot, Serbs and Romanians from further south are completely aghast that some of…

> Generally the self-determination of a population is opposed if that population is viewed as the same ethnicity as you.

"Generally" isn't the right word. "In mainland China" would be a better. In Europe there are separate countries that are more similar than different parts of China. It isn't even true amongst Han countries. Taiwan and Singapore are mostly Han and still want to remain independent countries from China. Also how does this logic apply to the parts of China that were not traditionally Han? China would never have taken them over using this logic.

> There's a feeling that once an ethnic group has been gathered together into the same nation state, none of them have the right to leave it. Thus in China today, it's no surprise that the Han population in China (or at least its Han-controlled government) would be uncomfortable with the idea of the Han in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) going in a different direction.

Hong Kong's destiny is clearly set, but your reference to Taiwan is a bit odd. Taiwan already "left". Taiwan's and mainland China have been independent countries since the end of the civil war (though many people play word games to pretend this isn't the case). So say it what it is. Mainland Chinese want to invade and take over Taiwan.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#222

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:46 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #215

dis-sys wrote: post #188

I'd like to offer my views on the decline of HK - 1. HK was a middleman, it used to connect the mainland China to the world. That worked for HK very well after 1949, but clearly the people living in the mainland do not want to see HK to keep having its cut for the flow of capitals/goods for a very reasonable reason - there are more and more professionals/businesses in mainland China that are eager/qualified/happy to…

Chinese from the mainland still goto HK to shop, if only for the lower taxes and greater selections. The lack of wepay is hardly a concern, and many places in HK actually take it.

no more from the tier-1 cities. go to internet forums with good number of residents from Shanghai/Beijing, see how many posts are still about their shopping experience in HK. 10 years ago, I'd be seeing a couple each day on the front page, now you'd be lucky to have one in a week.

it is also questionable to believe that there are better selection in HK - the sheer number of affordable consumers and their aggregated purchasing power determine where those tier-1 brands go.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#223

Post by tesators » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:48 AM UTC

wbl wrote: post #169

narrator wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us. For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic…

They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.

Exactly. If China wants to be a first class world power, they need to learn how to manufacture consent like the CIA.

Right now they are having a hard enough time trying to control their citizens. They won't be a superpower until they topple a few democratically elected governments first.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#224

Post by vitaminbandit » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:49 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #173

vitaminbandit wrote: post #170

EDIT: Nevermind. unityByFreedom is a troll https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=14667581

> The only difference is, with the exception of Taipei, there is no political history to point to and scapegoat. Sure there is. Politicians allowed foreigners to buy residency/citizenship in Canada to a greater degree than possible elsewhere. There are plenty of political levers to pull that can adjust housing costs. Government has a major role in determining property prices. They set the tax rates and issue permits.…

unityByFreedom 3 hours ago > Why don't you try responding to my argument rather than calling me names?

unityByFreedom 7 hours ago > Sounds like a narrative that Beijing would very much support, Mr. New Account. Get people to hate their local govt and appeal to a higher authority for support. Brilliant.

Because, as you've demonstrated, it's just so much easier (fun too!) to ignore an argument altogether and resort to ad hominem style retorts.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#225

Post by FooBarWidget » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:52 AM UTC

sho wrote: post #50

throwawayasdf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, they love their government with extreme pride. You're probably talking to them as an obvious American, and they are backing down and downplaying it to hide it, because they know it's your home turf and they'd rather not get in a fight with a 'Murica-dude over it. Try talking to them as another asian or foreigner. You will see their nationalism come out. If you don't believe me, ask your non-American non-Chinese…

> Dude, they love their government with extreme pride I'm going to present as much evidence as you have - none - but in my experience this is categorically and absurdly untrue. And your claim that others don't see this because they're "obvious American" is the opposite of reality. The only times I have seen Chinese express "love" for their government is when it's criticised by a foreigner. Between themselves they com…

I concur with this. I once saw an American student, studying in Europe. A European student was critisizing her country's government. The conversation did not go well, she eventually cried out in tears. That is when I realized Americans care deeply about their country. Americans complain among themselves about their government all the time but it is a different matter if an outsider complains about your government. Probably the same thing is happening when you talk to Chinese students.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#226

Post by tesators » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:56 AM UTC

hencq wrote: post #107

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Very interesting. It touches on something I've been thinking about lately. The book Why Nations Fail [1][2] makes an argument very similar to yours that there are two factors that determine (economic) success of a nation: 1) inclusive economic systems and 2) inclusive political systems. They argue that these can form a virtuous cycle where they enhance themselves. However, if nations don't have inclusive systems, the…

But Hong Kong became prosperous during a time when it didn't have either of those.

During the booming 70s-90s, just about all high level government officials were appointed by the British. In addition, most of the upper class were British as well.

Local Hongkongers were often second class citizens.

Likewise, when Singapore, Korea, and Taiwan were booming, they were essentially dictatorships.

Heck, compare South Africa and Zimbabwe during the apartheid era to now.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#227

Post by dis-sys » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:57 AM UTC

unityByFreedom wrote: post #132

pishpash wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is that Hong Kong existed as an arbitrage hub to an artificially closed hinterland during a political time warp, and when China finally opened up, Hong Kong's fate was already sealed. Hong Kong still has some first-world advantages to exploit, but the number is dwindling day by day.

> Hong Kong still has some first-world advantages to exploit, but the number is dwindling day by day. Beijing/Shanghai have yet to demonstrate the level of innovation that comes out of the Hong Kong/Shenzhen connection. And, parents still send their kids across the border in mainland China to go to school in Hong Kong. China may have opened up, and is continuing to open up more, but by no means are the gates fully op…

First of all, there is no federal Chinese government, it is called the Central Government of China. There is no federation any time during China's history - the central government controls everything in every province, the power of any local administration is granted by the Central Government, directly or indirectly.

Secondly, most innovations happen in Beijing, you can count whatever stats you like, such as # of patents filed, high tech start up numbers, VC funds and where they invest their $ etc. You'd be seeing more than half are in Beijing.

To give you a very quick example: Xiaomi, Didi, Mobike and OFO are the 4 unicorns of China's internet industry, all headquartered in Beijing, their R&D are done in Beijing, these four have not gone IPO and the youngest worth $1B.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#228

Post by yodiployo » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 6:57 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #209

robotresearcher wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replace the US with San Francisco or NYC and the list still applies.

Now take Manhattan Island, politically and physically isolate it, restrict freedom of movement between it and the rest of the country, and shut the rest of the country off from international trade for a few decades and you'll begin to approach an apples-to-apples comparison with HK.

Nitpick all you want, d_burfoot is right.

As Manhattan drags the West into the mire, Hong Kong leads the East's ascent.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#229

Post by tesators » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 7:01 AM UTC

princetontiger wrote: post #171

d_burfoot wrote: post #161

Before pontificating too much about the doom of Hong Kong, you should observe that compared to the US, HK has: - Far lower crime and incarceration - Better education (measured by PISA scores) - Incomparably better infrastructure (compare beautiful, clean HK subways with laughably pathetic US ones) - Better health outcomes than the US, 84 year life expectancy vs 79 for the US - Preserves an incredibly large percentage…

.... built by the British, not the Chinese. The British gave the local Chinese a first world place. Again, HK and Singapore were both built by British folks. Look it up. Had the British colonized more places, it would be even safer. Malaysia is still defended by Aussies and Brits to this day!

The British also colonized the Middle East and Africa. So why are those places hellholes?

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#230

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Jun 30, 2017, 7:08 AM UTC

dis-sys wrote: post #222

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese from the mainland still goto HK to shop, if only for the lower taxes and greater selections. The lack of wepay is hardly a concern, and many places in HK actually take it.

no more from the tier-1 cities. go to internet forums with good number of residents from Shanghai/Beijing, see how many posts are still about their shopping experience in HK. 10 years ago, I'd be seeing a couple each day on the front page, now you'd be lucky to have one in a week. it is also questionable to believe that there are better selection in HK - the sheer number of affordable consumers and their aggregated p…

Holy shit does Beijing suck for shopping, even in 2017; it is a mixture of really overpriced luxury brands who used to make all their profits on money laundering combined with new malls with the same set of generic stores in each. Maybe Shanghai is better, but if it's anything like Beijing, well, it makes sense why people still go to Korea, Japan, Hong Kong to shop. It always made sense to head down to HK to buy a new iPhone or computer, or wait till I headed back to the states, because shopping in china is just so depressing. $100 for a pair of Levi 550s in sanlitun village that cost $30 stars Fred Myers in the states? No way.

Last time I went to HK a year and a half ago, it was still packed with mainlanders shopping like crazy in the malls.