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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#161

Post by d_burfoot »

Before pontificating too much about the doom of Hong Kong, you should observe that compared to the US, HK has:

- Far lower crime and incarceration

- Better education (measured by PISA scores)

- Incomparably better infrastructure (compare beautiful, clean HK subways with laughably pathetic US ones)

- Better health outcomes than the US, 84 year life expectancy vs 79 for the US

- Preserves an incredibly large percentage of its territory for parks (most of HK island is a park)

- No natural resources like the US

- All of this with far far lower taxes than the US (government % of GDP is roughly 14% compared to 38% in US)

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#162

Post by unityByFreedom »

vacri wrote: post #160
unityByFreedom wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think comments like the above are intentionally trying to divert attention from your main points.

Main points, like talking about all 1.3B people as if they are of the one mind? 1.3B brainwashed chinese, unlike the 300M free-thinking americans, none of whom buy into any sort of blind nationalism, amirite? Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is su…

> 1.3B brainwashed chinese, unlike the 300M free-thinking americans, none of whom buy into any sort of blind nationalism, amirite?

Textbook whataboutism. The US isn't jailing people who talk about government missteps. China does jail people who talk about what happened in 1987.

> Also, how does 'extreme nationalism' manifest in the expat community? Is it just talking passionately about your homeland? Or are these people actually taking physical action? I mean, 'extreme nationalism' is suggestive of more than just talking.

I think he meant "patriotic". The most patriotic thing is to believe your country's form of government is better than others, or at least as good as others. So, I gather that comment was asking how the Chinese can support their government while it embraces capitalism.

Personally, I don't hold the same feeling of incredulity. I think it all exists to support those currently in power and to prevent revolution. China had to adapt after Mao's policy failures, and they did so while keeping the same government in power.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#163

Post by carapace »

justicezyx wrote: post #153
carapace wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you said you don't want to start a "game of whataboutism", but I've been thinking about the suppression of knowledge about the "June Fourth Incident" and it really blows my mind. No one in America will repress you, punitively or otherwise, for talking openly about, for example, the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male.” This is a horrifying and deeply shameful thing, tears well up in my eyes…

I am not sure you are really replying to my comment. I said nothing about CCP being what, I am defending Chinese people's behavior, and rebuttal the ideas that Chinese people are a group of "extreme communism supporter who happily enjoy the value of freedom and hide their true color". CCP does much worse things than you western people even remotely understood. That does not mean that Chinese people are spies/extremis…

I'm not sure I was replying directly to your comment either. I apologize.

I only recently learned about the whole "washing" of the "Incident" and it has really made me think.

I certainly agree with your rebuttal. I do not conflate the CCP with the Chinese people. And I'm aware that there are hundreds of millions of Chinese people who don't even live in China.

I also recognize that most of the members of the CCP are good people, the ones I call "scary" are a small minority. (Even if I don't agree with Communism.)

All things considered, if I'm thinking clearly, the most important thing I can recognize about China and the Chinese people is my own deep ignorance. :)

- - -

some points:

In re: the Falun Gong, they have newspapers and occasional demonstrations where I live, and they manage to make a very sober and sobering account of it. If they are lying they are damn good at it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...

I don't know the truth of it myself, I hate to believe it.

> > What is the world gives someone the right to try to lie to a whole nation of billions of people? > No one. And no Chinese people or very few of them think CCP has the right either.

Which is reassuring in one sense but dreadful in another: the concept of the "Mandate of Heaven" is still valid, even if you take it just as a metaphor?

> Not sure what do you mean by "false reality".

I mean the attempt to pretend the Tiananmen Square Massacre didn't happen.

> No clue what "grotesque arrogance" refers to.

I mean that the folks responsible for the decision to try to change history are being arrogant, institutionally if not personally.

> Please, do not mix CCP and Chinese people. People do not align themselves 100% at all time with the government or the party.

I agree. But taken together, as a Nation, that's a lil schizophrenic. Part of the nation knowing about the massacre and part "knowing" that it was merely an "incident" or even a myth, that's very schizophrenic. Even if most of the people see through it, it's still unhealthy I think.

In re: Taiping Rebellion. When I read about it I was horrified. A vast horde hopped up on rebellion and bad religion and overrunning everything they could... And they call it a "righteous movement"..?

Anyhow, sorry for my ignorance.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#164

Post by jeffchien »

Analemma_ wrote: post #89
blackbagboys wrote: post #22

Compared to the reputation for far-seeing technocratic excellence that it acquired in the foreign business press, the CCP leadership has always been astonishingly short-sighted when it comes to foreign policy. The Taiwanese are taking note of what 'one country two systems' means in practice - absolute submission to the ruthless, brutal oligarchy in Beijing. The CCP will crush Hong Kong, destroying everything that mad…

I mentioned this in the last thread about Hong Kong, but they're not as dumb as you think. Taiwan (both the Blue and Green coalitions) has always distrusted "one country, two systems", even way back in the 90s before Hong Kong's autonomy started getting salami-sliced away. China knows that, and knows they're not really losing anything by abandoning that approach. That's not their plan anyway. The parallel tracks for…

Hmm, I'm not so sure about your assertions. The anti-mainland sentiment fuels the DPP in spite of the disastrous end of the Chen presidency and the mounting dissatisfaction with Tsai and their current legislative majority. Ma met with Xi despite of that anti-mainland sentiment; it's not a huge leap for me to imagine he would have done more if China didn't alienate the Taiwanese public so much.

Just yesterday the Senate Armed Services Committee voted for allowing the Navy to dock at Kaohsiung again[1]. It'll be interesting to see how all sides react.

1: https://www.wsj.com/articles/senate-panel-votes-to-allow-nav...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#165

Post by dang »

ask-the-dust wrote: post #84
and0 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No: - Britain's own level of freedom doesn't reflect how they've treated colonies in the past. See: all of history. - The UK isn't as free as many other Western nations. See: their track record on surveillance (although everyone is catching up there), or even Theresa May literally saying "I’ll rip up human rights laws that impede new terror legislation" quite recently. - Founding documents rarely mean anything when i…

You have played the Racist Card. @Princetontiger must now make a d20 saving roll. If he fails to roll 19 or 20, his argument is invalidated. You will accumulate 5 Social Justice Warrior points for use of the Racist Card.

Please don't do this here.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#166

Post by dang »

swuecho wrote: post #40

You probably the typical american who think he understand china better than Chinese. In comparison, I born in China and live in US for 6 years now.

I'm sure you do know more, but I'm afraid this comment violates the HN guidelines in two ways: (1) it's a personal and national attack ("you probably the typical American") and (2) it contains no helpful information.

We ban accounts that attack other users, so please don't do that, even when someone's comment is annoying or wrong. When you know more about a topic than others, the thing to do is teach them. On HN that means posting something neutral and factual that other users can learn from.

We detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14664772 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#167

Post by dang »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

We've banned this account. Inflammatory nationalistic rhetoric is not welcome on Hacker News. (The irony of doing that while criticizing nationalism in others is also worth noting.)

We understand the temptation, but please don't create accounts to break HN's guidelines with. Doing that will eventually get your main account banned as well.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#168

Post by Analemma_ »

jeffchien wrote: post #164
Analemma_ wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mentioned this in the last thread about Hong Kong, but they're not as dumb as you think. Taiwan (both the Blue and Green coalitions) has always distrusted "one country, two systems", even way back in the 90s before Hong Kong's autonomy started getting salami-sliced away. China knows that, and knows they're not really losing anything by abandoning that approach. That's not their plan anyway. The parallel tracks for…

Hmm, I'm not so sure about your assertions. The anti-mainland sentiment fuels the DPP in spite of the disastrous end of the Chen presidency and the mounting dissatisfaction with Tsai and their current legislative majority. Ma met with Xi despite of that anti-mainland sentiment; it's not a huge leap for me to imagine he would have done more if China didn't alienate the Taiwanese public so much. Just yesterday the Sena…

I don’t think our observations are incompatible :)

Note that I didn’t say China’s plan was necessarily working, I think that’s an open question and I’m actually bearish on it: I think the upcoming generation of Taiwanese are less interested than ever in the mainland and can see through this plot.

I’m just saying that both countries know “one country, two systems” is a dead letter and so China isn’t worried that the crackdown in Hong Kong is damaging its chances. They know Taiwan wrote it off years ago.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#169

Post by wbl »

narrator wrote: post #154
FabHK wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes both ways, though - the tacit deal is basically that the HK tycoons do not challenge the Chinese Communist Party's monopoly on power, and the CCP doesn't challenge the HK tycoons' economic monopolies. But, all in all, I agree. As I've written in another thread: The grievances of HK's population are real: a political and business establishment dominated by property tycoons (and increasingly mainland Chinese po…

>Today, HK's GDP is barely 3% of China's, and the ports of Shanghai and Shenzhen together have 3x the throughput of HK. (Just have a look at these pictures: I am really waiting for a NY Times article that has some angle about what China can teach us, not what they should learn from us. For the last 30 years we have been getting continuous dispatches that Communism with Chinese characteristics will fail into economic…

They can teach us how to use political dissidents as organ donors, suppress protests by disappearing opponents, imprison those who point out corruption, and no doubt many other things alien to our way of life.
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