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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#71

Post by Mikeb85 »

The real problem is that Hong Kong is a finance and trading hub. And it became so because it was the easiest way to do business with China.

But business likes stability. The democracy protests have done nothing for Hong Kong, and now that China's eased access to their market through Shanghai, Hong Kong's entire raison d'être is at risk.

Also, the article is pretty spot on in other ways. Once upon a time, Hong Kong students were guaranteed success by virtue of being born there. Now, they need to compete with mainlanders, which of course is a much larger pool.

And finally, 20 years ago China wanted to build up Hong Kong as a model for it's 2 systems 1 country philosophy. However the democracy protests have all but killed that, so the Chinese will gladly simply build up Shanghai to Hong Kong's detriment, and no amount of democracy or separatism will fix it.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#72

Post by sho »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #53
justicezyx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer, from mainland China, knows people live in US from Hong Kong. > There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence. > taiwan is a part of china History shows that Taiwan was forcefully…

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area. Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to…

In my experience anyone who wants to be politically enlightened in China can be. There's simply no plugging every single hole in the great firewall, or stopping verbal exchange of knowledge. The june fourth incident, as they call it, is very well known and every year on that day there's a flurry of awareness activism, swiftly (but not really punitively) repressed.

In my opinion it will actually get better in time. The country is not in as precarious a position as it was back then, and with the progression of stabilisation, the need to suppress embarrassing parts of history will hopefully diminish. I certainly doubt something like that could happen again.

And you might know that censorship can take different forms. The CCP has historically taken a heavy-handed approach; other countries are more subtle, but they de-emphasize and bury. I personally think that Japan's systematic memory-hole-ing of its WWII exploits is far worse than the Tiananmen suppression. And what percentage of Americans do you think know about Kent State? Dresden? Hell, dronings?

Not really defending China here, or trying to start a game of whataboutism. I'm just pointing out that they're not North Korea, their citizens are not stupid, governments will always protect themselves, and history is written by the winners everywhere.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#73

Post by abiox »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

this seems like a straw man if not outright nonsequitur.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#74

Post by abiox »

sho wrote: post #59
justicezyx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "no private ownership" = communism, then correct, China is communism country. But as defined in the textbook, communism also requires highly-developed society, where citizens not work for their living, but for their aspiration, and the society provides the consumables for people's living. And many other necessary conditions to be called communism. Even for private ownership. If I bought a house in US, do I have an…

FFS. China has private ownership of property encoded in its constitution. What are you even talking about? Very frustrating to watch these energetic discussions with strongly-held views based on pure nonsense. It's 2017 guys. You have a whole internet of information at your fingertips. Use it, please!

can't speak to china, but it's worth noting that private and personal property are distinct concepts.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#75

Post by dullgiulio »

muninn_ wrote: post #36
eveningcoffee wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but at least they don't have unelected politicians setting rules I guess you are referring to the European Commission that is an executive branch of the EU institutions i.e. a government. Guess what - in most cases people have no control over who becomes a member of the government - in best case they can vote for a person who becomes a leader of the government (say president in US). In that regard the selection of…

And here we go already.... > in most cases people have no control over who becomes a member of the government in best case they can vote for a person who becomes a leader of the government Uh, do you not support democracy? Because how else do you have a democracy except to vote for elected representatives, and you have DIRECT control of doing so through voting? I'm not really anti-EU. I don't much care, whatever keep…

What are you on about? The European Parliament members are absolutely voted for. Parliament in turn elects the executive branch. It is the same in many countries.

By that twisted logic, Theresa May was very much unelected. Probably even more so now...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#76

Post by ask-the-dust »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

Those countries you list are slowly losing those cultural ideals tho. Thought policing and government over-reach being big problems.

Generous welfare entitlements are also big pull factors in people wanting to immigrate to those countries.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#77

Post by sho »

justicezyx wrote: post #66
sho wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FFS. China has private ownership of property encoded in its constitution. What are you even talking about? Very frustrating to watch these energetic discussions with strongly-held views based on pure nonsense. It's 2017 guys. You have a whole internet of information at your fingertips. Use it, please!

""" According to the Constitution, land in cities is owned by the State; land in the rural and suburban areas is owned by the State or by collectives. (Constitution, art. 10.) Although individuals cannot privately own land, they may obtain transferable land-use rights for a number of years for a fee. There are a series of laws and regulations regulating the land-use rights and ownership of residential property, inclu…

> I am not an expert

Well me neither, but I certainly doubt all those Shanghainese are dropping millions on apartments that they don't even own!

And yes, real estate is leasehold, although the difference between auto-renewing leasehold and eminent domain-subject freehold seems to be a matter of semantics. The only country I'm aware of where a private citizen seemingly really can resist the ability of the state to seize their land, and thus actually does appear to genuinely "own" it, is Japan.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#78

Post by vitaminbandit »

This article takes an economic situation and tries to frame it as a political one. Hong Kongers don't care about the ideological differences between mainland China and HK, they care about the staggering inequality and loss of economic mobility in their once vibrant city.

Chinese money is flooding into Hong Kong and it's all being parked into real estate. This has sent real estate prices skyrocketing and far outside the reach of ordinary citizens. As a secondary effect, Hong Kong elites are now parking all their money into real estate with the expectation that the Chinese capital flight continues to drive up real estate prices. Real estate is the best investment available in Hong Kong right now. Bar none.

With all their capital tied up in real estate, the elites don't invest in startups or R&D. No increases in productivity, no new jobs, no gains for the average citizen in a city that grows more expensive by the day. This is why Hong Kong is in decline. This is why Hong Kongers takes to the streets. It's not a backlash towards conflicting political ideology, they just want the Chinese and their damn money out.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#79

Post by caretoomuch »

warcher wrote: post #69
caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Would you agree that the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions in society to redress these imbalances, or do you think, even with universal suffrage, the citizens of Hong Kong are too fractured to come up with solutions? (Similar to the current political climate in the US.)

> the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions to redress these imbalances

I agree all of it until "to redress these imbalances", i.e. letting the local elite rule Hong Kong was a deliberate decision by Beijing. Back then (before/during the hand-over to China), nobody knew how it's gonna work. And as of now, that decision turned out to be a failure. But letting non-elite factions to participate does not guarantee "redress the imbalances". see my comments below

> or do you think, even with universal suffrage, the citizens of Hong Kong are too fractured to come up with solutions? (Similar to the current political climate in the US.)

I do feel there's very fertile soil for political populism (not in a good way) in Hong Kong. What universal suffrage does guarantee is the emergence of a new class of pure/traditional politicians, probably armed with populist rhetorics... Are they gonna "redress the imbalance?", certainly they would say so, but... wait, I'm starting to have a deja-vu...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#80

Post by dang »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

HN is a place for thoughtful, respectful discussion—not nationalistic rhetoric, which you've been posting plenty of in this thread and unfortunately your comment history has quite a bit of it too. We ban accounts that inflame threads this way, because they destroy the civil discourse this site is supposed to exist for. So please don't post to HN like this again.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14665241 and marked it off-topic.

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