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Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

nytimes.com

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Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#61

Post by caretoomuch »

throwawayasdf wrote: post #20
caretoomuch wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just assume all what you alleged is true. Then what do you suggest we do with "the Chinese" or at least "Chinese like that" in the US/West/Wherever-you-are-referring-to?

I suspect that their degree of extreme nationlism is inversely related to the amount of time and # of family members who are here. That's why a few other members say their anecdotal evidence hasn't seen that much extreme pride - I suspect the people they are talking about have spent 5-10 years here at least, and arrived here in the late 90's-early 2000's when China was still weak and not as rich. Try talking to new g…

I highly doubt there could ever be any coherent "US strategy", but let's say there is/will be one. So you are suggesting the way to "deal with the Chinese" is to let more of them move/live in the west? Looks like the US has been doing that for quite a while, so nothing seems in need of any change...

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#62

Post by throwawayasdf »

princetontiger wrote: post #35

I love both these comments. China doesn't have private ownership. it's still communist, right?

It's funny to see the obviously pro-CCCP replies to you here. It demonstrates my point exactly.

No, you don't have ownership. You only rent the land for 70 years, after which it returns to the government. You can 'sell your property' to somone else, at which point the 70-year lease on the land is reset for them to 0.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#63

Post by tuna-piano »

Chathamization wrote: post #42
tuna-piano wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was trying to compare the political situation, not quality of life, which as you mention is vastly different. My comparison is more that: -China controls Hong Kong with only limited local say in the government. Israel also controls the West Bank, with limited Palestinian Authority control of certain matters. -Hong Kong can't have a military or conduct foreign affairs and isn't internationally recognized (same as We…

I'd say that the biggest difference in terms of the political situation is that the people in Hong Kong are Chinese, and Hong Kong is part of China. Palestinians aren't Israeli (and Israel even talks about population transfers to remove Arab citizens), and Palestine isn't considered part of Israel (Israel's stance seems to be "we control this land and maybe some of it is part of Israel but maybe part of it isn't"). W…

I don't know about that. 1.7 million (20%) Israeli citizens are Israeli Arabs, many of whom are close relatives of people in the West Bank.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#64

Post by throwawayasdf »

orthoganol wrote: post #26
throwawayasdf wrote: post #2

of course it's in trouble. There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens, many of whom are working here in the bay, who believe: 1) taiwan is a part of china 2) tiannamen square didn't happen 3) the CCP is ok how can they study here for grad school, want to stay for h1-b and get the green card, have extreme nationalism for their officially communist government, yet happily participate in the fruits of capitalism and west…

No point in talking about China from the lens of traditional communism. China is an authoritarian capitalist country, 'capitalism with Asian values' as is said with Singapore arguably the architect, so being upset about Chinese communists being invited into the country because they are communist is kind of absurd. Not wanting them in the country because they support an oppressive, racist government with more state ex…

Your points are all pretty much valid. However, you're getting hung up on terms that misses the point. My use of 'officially communist' was to imply the fact that it's more of a authoritarian regime. I also find it funny how so many are getting hung up on the same use of the term. You're missing the forest for the trees.

Anyone with half a brain knows that its not the theoretical communism.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#65

Post by pkaler »

princetontiger wrote: post #33

Britain is the genesis of freedom. Go read the Magna Carta. Other Western European countries also spread fantastic ideals. Non-Western countries have ZERO freedoms, and people are crawling over themselves to move to the West. DESPITE, these "colonial powers" leaving 40-50 years ago, those populations want to move to Europe, the US, Australia/NZ, and Canada.

That is not a very nuanced definition of freedom and democracy.

The first UK prime minister was elected in 1721 and still serves at the pleasure of the monarch. The French Revolution started in 1789. And of course, the Declaration of Independence was issued in 1776.

Democracy and freedom in the West is a relatively recent phenomenon.

And looking over all of the slavery, colonialism, and wars; it is difficult to assert that freedom and democracy was a thing in the West in the 1800s.

Nevermind all of the genocide committed by the West in the 1900s.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#66

Post by justicezyx »

sho wrote: post #59
justicezyx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "no private ownership" = communism, then correct, China is communism country. But as defined in the textbook, communism also requires highly-developed society, where citizens not work for their living, but for their aspiration, and the society provides the consumables for people's living. And many other necessary conditions to be called communism. Even for private ownership. If I bought a house in US, do I have an…

FFS. China has private ownership of property encoded in its constitution. What are you even talking about? Very frustrating to watch these energetic discussions with strongly-held views based on pure nonsense. It's 2017 guys. You have a whole internet of information at your fingertips. Use it, please!

""" According to the Constitution, land in cities is owned by the State; land in the rural and suburban areas is owned by the State or by collectives. (Constitution, art. 10.) Although individuals cannot privately own land, they may obtain transferable land-use rights for a number of years for a fee. There are a series of laws and regulations regulating the land-use rights and ownership of residential property, including: ... """

https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2015/03/chinese-law-on-private-own...

I am not an expert.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#67

Post by vitaminbandit »

princetontiger wrote: post #48

I agree completely. In European/Anglo countries, the ruling elite give back. Check out Grand Central, Rockefeller Center, the large parks and gardens throughout the great countries of the world. The ruling elite in Asia don't care about others.

You know, just today I was thinking about how positively Rockefeller Center has impacted my life.

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#69

Post by warcher »

caretoomuch wrote: post #41

As someone lived in Hong Kong for quite a while (during the tail of its heydays) but now in the US, Hong Kong is indeed in big trouble. But not for the reasons mentioned/implied in this article. It's very easy to buy into narratives such as authoritarianism vs democracy, communism vs capitalism, China vs Britain/West, tight control vs freedom as the reasons for Hong Kong's decline, but that's just short-circuited thi…

Would you agree that the deliberate limits on participatory democracy imposed by Beijing are limiting the ability of the non-elite factions in society to redress these imbalances, or do you think, even with universal suffrage, the citizens of Hong Kong are too fractured to come up with solutions? (Similar to the current political climate in the US.)

Re: Once a Model City, Hong Kong Is in Trouble

#70

Post by justicezyx »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #53
justicezyx wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer, from mainland China, knows people live in US from Hong Kong. > There's 1.3 billion brain-washed citizens Brain-wash is a strong word. Chines people are not like some another-dimensional like minions. They think and behave reasonably and just like any other one on this planet. Please refrain from using strong word without actual evidence. > taiwan is a part of china History shows that Taiwan was forcefully…

You probably meet some people who happen to believe that. I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen, let alone those who live in Bay area. Why does the government go to such extreme lengths to suppress the information then? More people than you admit don't believe or admit it happens. The government is playing a long game here, as the younger you are the less likely you are to have had access to…

I think you are right. But I want to point out that most college educated people know there is a tianmen incident. They may view it as a unlawful riot, instead of what believed by western people.

My statement "I highly doubt anyone in China now believe that did not happen" seems too rush and was from my own experience only, because I learned Tianmen incident in college.

Or I should say most people eventually will be ignorant about what's tianmen incident. They neither believe it happened or not happened, they simply have no such idea, like in an alternative universe.

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