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6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

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Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another common theme I noticed is when the man in question stays in the gray area where individual incidents aren't clearly over the line and might not qualify legally as sexual harassment, but in context and in aggregate it's clear why a woman would feel very uncomfortable. How do you confront something like that when they can just question your perception of reality? This is where professionalism and propriety co…

> This is where professionalism and propriety come in. One's behavior should simply be well outside the gray area and straying into it should, itself, be grounds for confrontation. That doesn't actually fix anything, you're just defining the gray area to be further to one side. If people actually did that then expectations would change and more innocuous behavior would fall into the gray area, requiring you to move t…

I don't mean that we should change the laws, so that the former grey area becomes the new illegal area; but rather that we should have a stricter attitude about the grey area. Sometimes people's attitude about these things is that, they acknowledge they are wrong, but since nothing illegal happened, they won't say or do anything. That's the grey area I'm talking about -- where there is broad acknowledgement that something is fishy, although it is not technically illegal.

This gray area exists because the law needs to operate under the presumption of innocence, defining crimes unambiguously and prosecuting them with due regard for reasonable doubt -- it is deliberately narrow and permissive, because the state is very powerful and if not held to strict limits it becomes very dangerous. However, those of us who wish to have a good social and professional reputation shouldn't expect to maintain it while doing things that are "barely legal"; and those who witness us doing so should not feel that those kinds of things are not to be mentioned or corrected merely because they are not illegal.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#422
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you're asking seriously, I have a hypothesis that probably applies to a lot of the well-meaning skeptical responses in this thread: Most of the men replying in this thread have an incorrect "prior" (in the statistical sense) of the odds that a woman will experience serious sexual harassment in the workplace. This prior emerges, one presumes, because we look at ourselves as the model for estimating that behavior…

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[edited to add - I think this is a fair point, and it certainly doesn't hurt to substantiate that more than I had time to last night. Here you go.]

https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/task_force/harassment/upload/repor...

pdf page 15 (document internal page 8): "Based on testimony to the Select Task Force and various academic articles, we learned that anywhere from 25% to 85% of women report having experienced sexual harassment in the workplace. ... We found that when employees were asked, in surveys using a randomly representative sample (called a “probability sample”), if they had experienced “sexual harassment,” without that term being defined in the survey, approximately one in four women (25%) reported experiencing “sexual harassment” in the workplace. This percentage was remarkably consistent across probability surveys. When employees were asked the same question in surveys using convenience samples (in lay terms, a convenience sample is not randomly representative because it uses respondents that are convenient to the researcher (e.g., student volunteers or respondents from one organization)), with sexual harassment not being defined, the rate rose to 50% of women reporting they had been sexually harassed."

The cited EEOC report has fairly extensive citations backing up its claims.

As I said - I have no specific numbers I believe are The One True Answer, but it's fairly clear from a variety of sources that the decimal points are in approximately the right place. For the purpose of what I was discussing, 25% and 85% are approximately the same ("Very much higher than one might guess if we use our own behavior as a model").

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#423
post #280

At the risk of sounding like I'm defending the guy (which I'm not), do we have a comprehensive definition of "Sexual Assault and Harassement" ? Because in some places (northern europe for example) these terms have very volatile definitions which allows pretty much anything to fall under the "rape" category. I totally understand that repeatedly violating somebody's physical safe space is a form a sexual assault (grabb…

Yes. We do.

Sexual assault:

From the DoJ:

"Sexual assault is any type of sexual contact or behavior that occurs without the explicit consent of the recipient. Falling under the definition of sexual assault are sexual activities as forced sexual intercourse, forcible sodomy, child molestation, incest, fondling, and attempted rape."

Source: https://www.justice.gov/ovw/sexual-assault

Sexual harassment:

From the EEOC, the which is the U.S. federal agency that is responsible for civil rights in the workplace:

"It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."

Source: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

(Edited to include sexual assault, which was included in the parent comment as one of the things apparently lacking a definition)

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#424
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Uh, isn't it called laws? We already codify victimhood pretty thoroughly. This would be a voluntary extension of legal protection to a credible third-party. Not government, not corporate. Corporations purchase their credibility and are also relieved of forming their own harassment policies which tend to be reactionary after the first public incident. Imagine if GitHub had this from day one.

[deleted]

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the USA, "sexual harassment" is generally defined as behavior or words of a sexual nature that make a person feel uncomfortable. Examples could range from an extreme of physical assault or offering a quid-pro-quo to keep ones job or get a promotion, all the way to telling lewd jokes or stories within earshot of a third party, or making comments or compliments about someone's dress or appearance (even telling a co-…

That's too broad / vague. I understand that if my actions/words are making/will make other person uncomfortable, I should stop. But if a coworker changed her hair style and I complemented it, can I be legally complained against?

The parent comment is not correct. No, you will not be "legally complained against" (I think you mean "am I breaking the law") if you compliment your coworker's hairstyle. See this: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the best example you can come up with is someone who literally got a blowjob from a hotel maid in his room just before leaving the country, which blowjob was only the latest instance of various supershady sexual activities/overtures involving subordinates and colleagues, then your position must be a very weak one indeed.

> "If the best example you can come up with is someone who literally got a blowjob from a hotel maid in his room " See your way of reasoning in which you automatically assume that whenever a woman accuses a men in power than the men is guilty, is exactly the problem here. Where can you tell Strauss Khan "literally got a blowjob from a hotel maid" in a case that didn't even go to trial because the accuser was found gu…

DSK never denied getting a blowjob. The only question was if it was physically coerced.

Claiming with a straight face that men are the ones who have it hard here is just prima facie laughable.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if it was always going to be uncomfortable sexual innuendos or propositioning for sex, then it wouldn't be a grey area . The point here was incidents that don't cross "the line", which means the location of the line is suddenly up for debate, so you don't even know if you did something wrong.

Isn't the location of the line always up for debate, though? Since people created the line and give it power, it moves with our consciousness and will. The line today is not where it was in 1890. As women gain a stronger voice, we should expect the line to move. Assuming that men actually care about their input, they'd cooperate in shifting the line to an acceptable standard for both parties. If the line is up for de…

Of course, "the debate" is an abstraction and it's actually a million different debates in a million different places.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think it's true, at least as a practical matter. The fact that women can harass men doesn't make it not true.

Could you expand on your reasoning, please. It seems to me that being sexual harassed by a person in a position of authority over you is unlikely to be that different based on sex but could differ a lot based on some of the characteristics that are often skewed to one sex or the other. So men in general might feel greater humiliation, perhaps; women might feel more vulnerable: both because of the physical strength of…

I am of the opinion that you can never "truly understand" another person's suffering unless you share their subjective experience. Women's suffering, in general and in this regard, is compounded by experiences and insidious forces far broader than the acts at issue in any given incident. It is both incorrect and intellectually disingenous to ignore this context, and to approach the matter as a simple and narrow question of whether men can be sexually harassed, and if so, how it makes them feel.

Consider Kafka. Any one incident in one of his stories could be fairly viewed as merely a confusing annoyance, but that would miss the point.

But even the structural nature of violence against women is insufficient context alone. The feelings women experience when they are victimized in this way are products of history. And I submit that you cannot share in that experience without that history, which is to say without having been born a woman.

I can no sooner "truly understand" how women experience these things than I can truly understand how it feels to be a black man called "boy." I understand it intellectually, and I empathize as much as I can, but I'll never "get it" as someone who isn't a member of the out-group.

This isn't a contest of suffering. I can suffer just as much as a woman, if not more, but not in the same way. It is the character of the suffering that makes us different.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#429
post #272

Really glad to see people like this getting called out. Dealing with sexual harassment/assault from someone in power is the last thing you want as a female founder - you have a million other things you need to do to keep your startup afloat, and you don't want to rock the boat if it affects your likelihood of being funded. Feels like the valley is slowly but surely changing. And yes, I recognize that this hasn't been…

> And yes, I recognize that this hasn't been "proven", but really what's the chance [...] Occams razor is that he's at the very least doing something that's inappropriate. Occam's razor is a tool to winnow down proven scientific theories, not to bypass the need for evidence. I'd rather vest power in the courts than outrage media.

Occam's razor is not in any way either now or historically restricted to scientific theories - proven or otherwise.

Re: 6 Women Accuse Tech VC Justin Caldbeck of Sexual Assault and Harassment

#430
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it involves rich or powerful people, the ability to get many she-said's becomes easier. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but due process exists for a reason. We should reserve judgement until the investigation progresses further.

I am one of the three women who went on the record: Niniane Wang. I'm one of the "she-said"s. I have nothing to gain from this. I am not suing. I'm founder & CEO of a Greylock-funded startup. Thankfully Greylock has come out in full support, but I didn't know that beforehand and was very nervous when I decided to do the article. The only way that any reporter would agree to publish was if I used my real name. I knew…

Thank you for your courage. You almost certainly saved others from harassment directly and your bravery also will have saved hundreds of others since those in powerful positions will be more vary and those being harassed will be more vocal. This story is one more stepping stone towards progress.
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