A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews • Hacker News Board

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#151

Post by nickthemagicman » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 3:57 AM UTC

matt_wulfeck wrote: post #24

nickthemagicman wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to tell this to all the billions of people starving on the street around the world. Poverty is not structural. It's the individual's responsibility. Poor people just need some change from within to elevate themselves out the favelas of Rio, the Dharavi in India, the west side of Chicago. The cancer they get from drinking polluted water, the failure of their body after being exposed to the elements, their famil…

Who's saying it's their fault? The only thing I'm saying is that both descent into poverty and ascension from it can be due to personal action. Why do we have to choose 100% one cause or the other?

Your argument highlights a sensational occurrence to disparage an large group of people.

It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists, or all people on food stamps are lazy...

It's not an overtly lie, but taken statistically... it's definitely a lie....and false and misleading.

Poverty is without a doubt structurally caused around the world.

There are obscure cases of people who cause themselves to be in poverty but most people do everything in their power not to be in poverty...and are in poverty because they don't have opportunities...

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#152

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:18 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #142

dragonwriter wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But we all still need access to the option to work. UBI makes work more attractive and available, not less, compared to the things it is generally proposed to replace (means tested benefit programs and minimum wages)—by replacing means-tested benefit programs it means people don't lose money for finding work, and by replacing minimum wages it means work with a positive, but low, value per hour can still be offered…

and by replacing minimum wages it means work with a positive, but low, value per hour can still be offered that would otherwise be forbidden. So your utopian ideal for ending poverty is UBI plus slave wages for the 99 percent. I fail to see how this is in any way better than minimum wage jobs. At best, it is a new variation of minimum wage, only you don't make minimum wage by getting a minimum wage, you get it by hav…

> So your utopian ideal

I've never mentioned a utopian ideal. I addressed the false implication that UBI was somehow opposed to the availability of work.

> for ending poverty

Poverty can be mitigated, but not ended.

> is UBI plus slave wages for the 99 percent.

No, "slave wages" makes even metaphorical sense only in the sense that unmitigated capitalism provides economic coercion to work; a system with UBI doesn't share that features of unmitigated capitalism.

Further, while replacing the minimum wage with UBI reduces the minimum value of jobs that can be offered, it reduces the pressure to accept low wage jobs, so low wages jobs are likely to accepted for experience or other reasons, but not economic coercion,

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#153

Post by hasenj » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:24 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #65

Banthum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…

> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Is there a morally relevant distinction between mental illness and bad work ethic? There is a lot of research to suggest that things we associate with "bad work ethic" ( e.g. lack of impulse control) appear extremely early in childhood development and aren't things people necessarily have much control over. We need to stop moralizing things that people hav…

> But there is still a weird doughnut hole were it is perfectly acceptable to make fun of people with 70 I agree that what we call "bad work ethic" is just something that happens to people in that IQ range.

Now the problem is, what are we supposed to do with these people?

If I were to start a small business, I would probably like to avoid having such people work for me.

The only entities that can afford to hire these people are large corporations like Walmart and McDonalds, but because they are large and powerful, they also get to abuse these people.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#154

Post by kamaal » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:32 AM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #17

This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are probably millions of people who pull themselves together like this - it's just they end up working regular jobs like maintenance work or burger flipping that aren't as inspirational. The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down o…

>>The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down on your luck (but hard-working and reasonably intelligent) (2) being stuck in a poverty loop due to mental illness, criminal record, or countless other complex factors.

Those two problem can be classified as:

1. Taking personal responsibility. 2. Not taking personal responsibility.

The moment you make up your mind that you are not responsible for your problem, you essentially remove any incentive to take action at your end. Essentially making it impossible for any real solution to work.

Im not saying people do not fail for reasons beyond their control. But if you do away the personal responsibility part, you permanently shut down the door for taking action from your end.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#155

Post by kamaal » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:41 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #81

Banthum wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances in many cases, yes. Why is it so unacceptable to think that they are simply humans, like you and me, with agency and power over their own choices, with responsibility for the outcomes of their choices, who are simply choosing to do a thing that you and I believe to be a really bad choices? A pattern of such choices is labeled "bad work ethic" but at the end of the day, bad…

Calling something a "choice" really does not capture the complexity of what it means to be human. "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." Romans 7:15.

Yet if you make a decision, its for all practical purposes a 'choice'.

There is generally a misalignment between your value system and the output your are expecting. In simple terms its called 'Hypocrisy'.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#156

Post by kamaal » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:42 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #60

chillacy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's not really inflammatory or even untrue. I think it's fair to say that this topic is complex enough that both this comment and the parent comment are true (which is that poverty is a function of both factors that can be controlled and factors that cannot be controlled).

"A huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic" is an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary evidence.

And yet if it actually was due to a bad work ethic, not acknowledging it means the bad work ethic continues.

Sometimes these are good points to tick away when you are trying to identify what your problems are.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#157

Post by waterhouse » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:42 AM UTC

alphonsegaston wrote: post #140

harryh wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correlation between intelligence (IQ) and conscientiousness (work ethic) is not at all clear btw. Some studies have actually found a negative correlation.

The most intelligent people I've know have tended to be quite lazy. The most successful were often smart, but more commonly passionate and hard working.

Most highly intelligent people spend the majority of their K-12 schooling taking classes designed for average-intelligence people who match their chronological age. They can achieve at a given level in class with much less effort than those around them, and they generally aren't given a strong incentive to achieve more. If they develop the habit of working hard to achieve at their limits, it's probably because they have a strong interest that they pursue outside of school.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#158

Post by kamaal » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 4:51 AM UTC

cbanek wrote: post #27

BluishLight wrote: post #3

Sometimes it seems to me that histories like this put the weight of leaving poverty in the individuals himselves rather than the government social services, enforcing the myth that poor people is people that chooses to.

I don't believe that people "choose" to be poor, and there is an overwhelming societal component at play. But I can't say that the individual and their choices don't matter. He admits he had problems with drugs, and that his life spiraled out of control. Do I think we should have treatment programs so it doesn't get this bad? Yes, of course. But some people don't think there's a problem, or need help until they hit b…

>>I don't believe that people "choose" to be poor

But you can get conditioned to be in that state. And then that will be a choice you would have made subconsciously.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#159

Post by bbarn » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 5:18 AM UTC

Mz wrote: post #78

mjevans wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be interesting if social research looked in to /why/ that was the case. Is there some ongoing problem disrupting these people's lives? Other family or social obligations that interfere with the hours the employer desires? Maybe a different shift (working hours during the day/night) would be better aligned with their biorhythms; it might require placement in a different job. I for one, know that I don't funct…

There is substantial research. Years ago, I had a class on Homelessness and Public Policy through SFSU. In a nutshell: 1. Most homeless people have one or more intractable personal problems, such as a medical problem, mental health issue or learning disability. 2. They end up homeless when their intractable personal problems finally cause them to run out of all resources and options and causes their social safety net…

I don't think it's reasonable to blame homelessness on housing costs. The people that can afford a 500 dollar a month rent are not the ones on the street because it went up to 600 dollars a month. It's the people that can't afford a 100 dollar a month rent that are homeless.

Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews

#160

Post by sangnoir » Tue, Jun 20, 2017, 5:26 AM UTC

tryitnow wrote: post #17

This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are probably millions of people who pull themselves together like this - it's just they end up working regular jobs like maintenance work or burger flipping that aren't as inspirational. The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down o…

> This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long.

He could have stayed on the street had he not kicked his drug habit. I am amazed that your comment doesn't mention his drug addiction at all - he wasn't just "down on his luck".

That he got over his addiction without support is amazing, but let us not pretend that smart, hard-working individuals can't get addicted to drugs. If you have an addiction, please don't be afraid to get help.