Earlier quoted context omitted.
It would be interesting if social research looked in to /why/ that was the case. Is there some ongoing problem disrupting these people's lives? Other family or social obligations that interfere with the hours the employer desires? Maybe a different shift (working hours during the day/night) would be better aligned with their biorhythms; it might require placement in a different job. I for one, know that I don't funct…
I'm sure there are extenuating circumstances in many cases, yes. Why is it so unacceptable to think that they are simply humans, like you and me, with agency and power over their own choices, with responsibility for the outcomes of their choices, who are simply choosing to do a thing that you and I believe to be a really bad choices? A pattern of such choices is labeled "bad work ethic" but at the end of the day, bad…
A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
81–90 of 193 posts
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…
> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Such thinking is the problem, it's juvenile, simplistic, and wrong.
I have three questions: >Such thinking is the problem - What problem?
>It's juvenile - What makes that idea juvenile?
>and wrong - What does this mean? I hear religious people use wrong this way often, but do not understand what it means.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#83This is a great story. But...someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. Honestly, there are probably millions of people who pull themselves together like this - it's just they end up working regular jobs like maintenance work or burger flipping that aren't as inspirational. The problem with stories like this is they conflate two problems: (1) being down o…
A story like this presents a way out of poverty and homelessness ... for a few people. Which is great, saving a single person is always a victory. But it doesn't scale.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
"A huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic" is an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary evidence.
Yeah. Specifically, if someone is confident enough to attach a qualifier to a numeric descriptor (i.e. "proportion"), they should demonstrate that they also have the quantities to support that qualifier.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just had a thought that much of the difficulty lies in the murky zone between the following views: 1) "This person is struggling, and part of the problem is their work ethic and poor executive functioning." and 2) "This is a moral failing and thus we can't help them too much, as they will take advantage of it." I think some people automatically associate the second idea with people who express the first, when in re…
Eh, more like: 3) "This person is struggling, we can't help them in ways that are too paternalistic or agency-denying, because that will ultimately just end up harming them". E.g. You wouldn't tell your child that his economic outcomes are completely unconnected to his own choices or work ethic. If a kid has trouble at a task, we don't just tell them that the task is stacked against them and that they can do nothing…
See also my other comment here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14590486
Your remarks are incredibly ignorant and are being downvoted because it is the sort of attitude that allows privileged peoples to wash their hands of dealing with very real systemic problems that are an excess burden for the people whose lives come so unraveled that they wind up homeless.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#86Earlier quoted context omitted.
someone who has the intelligence and work ethic to do this probably wasn't going to be homeless for long. And capacity. Many people on the street have serious health problems or other obstacles to productivity. I lack neither intelligence nor a work ethic, but I do have health problems. I have been homeless 5.5 years, though I blog, do freelance work, etc. Edit: You also need opportunity. Being homeless can be a huge…
Honest question: why don't you charge enough for your freelance work so you wouldn't be homeless?
You have $50K in collections debt, no insurance, no credit, no bank. Any money you have, you carry with you.
Getting paid is a pain in the ass, because even though you could conceivably receive money through an online service that does not require a credit card or bank acct, actually extracting the money as cash is quite difficult. Nobody wants to Paypal a client, anyway, and nobody wants to learn how Bitcoin works, much less figure out potential tax issues. You apologize profusely for making the client send you your fee via Western Union.
You pay for a prepaid cellphone. You need internet with a sizeable data cap, which isn't very affordable or reliable via mobile, so your first stop for internet is probably libraries or cafes, which you can only work at for a certain period of time before you're not-so-politely asked to move on. Just getting your work done or having a regular video call can be troublesome.
You carry your possessions with you, and the more you carry, the more homeless you look, and the more homeless you look, the more people have a kind of ick-response to your presence and want you gone. If you ever have to put your stuff down for a moment you risk your only valuable possessions disappearing.
You don't have enough yet to cover first, last, and security on an apartment, but that doesn't matter anyway because nobody will rent you an apartment without proof of income. You have no permanent address, so getting billed (among many other things) is an issue. Your options for housing are dangerous and filthy weekly or monthly rate rooms in the equivalent of a halfway house or crack motel. A shelter is sometimes a better option, when a bed is available.
Getting to your semi-housing is not easy, because it's invariably located on abandoned stretches of US-1 or a highway (and obviously you have no car). You are very lucky if there is public transit that goes from your shitty motel to a place where you can use wifi regularly. You may have to pick between paying for taxis (no, Uber doesn't run out there, but will charge you a pretty penny to take you there) with the little money you have, or walking a couple hours each way. If you have an in-person client, you obviously need to be presentable, so now you're spending as much as you can on a place with a shower, taxis to and from the job, and maybe an upgrade to a place with wifi.
All of this for basically one or two clients that occasionally hand you a small piece of work at a very-sub-standard rate. Because of your bad credit, lack of recent work experience, lack of a bank account, lack of transportation, etc etc, few people want to work with you. When they do, the work is infrequent, and done when you can actually get to doing it, due to the aforementioned impediments.
You pray your stuff doesn't get stolen, that you don't get mugged, that you will get another contract soon. You don't haggle over payment because you're lucky someone will deal with your awkward payments, and what if you lost that client and had to start over? Without some kind of miracle, there is no math that puts you in stable housing any time within the next year.
The answer "It's complicated" isn't satisfying, but it's often reality.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…
It's a shame this is getting downvoted because it's not really inflammatory or even untrue. I think it's fair to say that this topic is complex enough that both this comment and the parent comment are true (which is that poverty is a function of both factors that can be controlled and factors that cannot be controlled).
I really like the metric that downvotes should be for comments that are uncivil and/or don't add anything of value to the discussion.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…
> But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Is there a morally relevant distinction between mental illness and bad work ethic? There is a lot of research to suggest that things we associate with "bad work ethic" ( e.g. lack of impulse control) appear extremely early in childhood development and aren't things people necessarily have much control over. We need to stop moralizing things that people hav…
However, poor work ethic as a mental shortcut plays into the just world viewpoint. Where lead poisoning contradicts it which is IMO why so many people think in terms of work ethic.
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I doubt anyone thinks all failure is a result of bad work ethic. Of course much is due to mental illness, disability, etc. But a huge proportion of poverty stems from bad work ethic. Some of the places in the USA with the highest underemployment are also places where employers are offering decent unskilled jobs and can't find enough workers. The worker gets hired, shows up for a few days, and then starts just not com…
It would be interesting if social research looked in to /why/ that was the case. Is there some ongoing problem disrupting these people's lives? Other family or social obligations that interfere with the hours the employer desires? Maybe a different shift (working hours during the day/night) would be better aligned with their biorhythms; it might require placement in a different job. I for one, know that I don't funct…
Re: A homeless man who turned his life around by offering book reviews
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Honest question: why don't you charge enough for your freelance work so you wouldn't be homeless?
I don't think you should have been downvoted because you appear to be trying to find out why this person doesn't have a home. I am not the poster, but here's an example of a plausible answer. (Apologies for the lengthy post) You have $50K in collections debt, no insurance, no credit, no bank. Any money you have, you carry with you. Getting paid is a pain in the ass, because even though you could conceivably receive m…
I actually spend several hours a day at a library with wonderful and supportive staff who do not hassle me. I do resume work online( http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/) and I work for a writing service and I blog. In recent years, ad money has dropped across the board for websites, not just mine, due what I call The Adblocker Wars. Most of the traffic on my personal blog is from HN and the vast majority of it uses adblockers. People on HN tend to not want to tip. Remarks on HN over and over indicate that if you don't like starving, instead of writing, you should go get a real job (like programming, apparently). Meanwhile, they expect good quality content to be available. I have bitched about this on my blog:
http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/on-writing-a...
http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2017/05/so-you-are-t...
So even with arranging my life where I have regular access to the internet, have no need to meet clients in person and so forth, I still have a lot of trouble turning my work into an adequate income stream. This is in spite of having six years of college and enough mojo to garner more than 19k karma on HN in spite of my gender. As far as I know, no other woman has karma in the 5 figures. They are all below 10k. (And before the hecklers tell me this is not evidence of anything: MEN on hacker news are routinely told they must be really smart, because they have a lot of karma on HN. I am the only person that says that about me and, inevitably, someone shoots it down instead of going "Holy Cow! Because you are a woman, your karma should be assumed to be worth like triple what it is for a man!")
But thank you for chiming in.