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How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

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Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#51

Post by elicash »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #29
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

What industry were / are you in? I'd really like to hear about this from people in blue-collar jobs, with small incomes, and smaller bargaining power. I am not sure if a Silicon Valley perspective about this is necessarily representative or useful.

I actually think this is the wrong way of thinking about it.

While Silicon Valley may be unique, that just means the things workers in those jobs want to focus their collective bargaining around may be unique, too. Not working in Silicon Valley, I won't pretend to know what those things are, but I certainly know that every workplace has issues and that without unions, the power structure is completely unbalanced in favor of management.

OP mentions sexual harassment. But if the workers wanted, they could actually collectively bargain even STRONGER sexual harassment policies than management wanted!

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#52

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

ghthor wrote: post #31
tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

I wonder if this issue with unions now is related to the same issue we're having in government politics, the voting system. If unions are using a first past the post system to vote in reps then the inevitable result is a concentration of power in a few parasitic individuals that and then exploit the employer and the union members for their own gain.

What makes you think their is an "issue with unions now" any more than their is an "issue" with corporations? When Wells Fargo steals from it's customers we discuss the problems with Wells Fargo and what's wrong with the culture at Wells Fargo and is this the fault of the CEO at Wells Fargo. When the union workers at Boeing strike we say "see, unions are bad."

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#53

Post by chimeracoder »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #47
RandomOpinion wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological. Ideological? A vast multitude of people have cited ongoing examples of misbehavior and abuse that they themselves have personally witnessed, which you casually handwave away by saying it's just "ideological". How about unions start actually cleaning up their act and making themselves respected champions of the worker again?

It is ideological. The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. They exist to balance one another.

> The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin.

Unions are corporations, in every sense of the word, both legally and conceptually.

Unions are just a special type of corporation that has been granted a special right: the exclusive, irrevocable[0] right to dictate the terms of employment of its members.

In some states, the union even literally acts as the employing entity, creating a de facto subcontractor relationship.

[0] In theory, the NLRA allows for members to deunionize. In practice, this is almost impossible - once a union forms, there is almost no way it's members can feasibly remove it if they decide they don't want to be represented by it anymore.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#54

Post by [deleted] »

flukus wrote: post #30
stale2002 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

I'd be fine with this, just don't expect any of the rewards that unions fight for. You can negotiate your own wages, your own holiday leave, your own cost of living increases, your own disciplinary process, etc. I'll stand up for your right to opt out and get none of these benefits.

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#56

Post by [deleted] »

chimeracoder wrote: post #53
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ideological. The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. They exist to balance one another.

> The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. Unions are corporations, in every sense of the word, both legally and conceptually. Unions are just a special type of corporation that has been granted a special right: the exclusive…

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#57

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

chimeracoder wrote: post #53
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ideological. The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. They exist to balance one another.

> The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. Unions are corporations, in every sense of the word, both legally and conceptually. Unions are just a special type of corporation that has been granted a special right: the exclusive…

I guess my point is more about the language difference employed when we talk unions vs companies. For example, I posted a thread earlier today about Wells Fargo abuses and there was no one in there saying: "see corporations are a bad idea and we should get rid of them." Yet there's a few people in here making that exact comment about unions. To me that's a contradiction.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#58

Post by skinnymuch »

tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

> And even after accounting for paying both sides of Social Security taxes

Clearly you should probably continue doing what you're doing since you make way more. But there's more benefits to a higher end job than just not paying half the social security tax, right?

Ballparking but the extra SS tax is like $8K a year or so right? If you need to provide health insurance for more than yourself and want the sort of health insurance you'd get at the top end of SO jobs, the cost should dwarf the extra SS tax you pay. If it's just for yourself then the cost would probably still equal out to about as much as the extra SS tax, no? I know you might have a spouse that gets you covered under insurance. But that isn't the case for everyone. And there's other benefits like 401k matching.

I'm not sure exactly what else there can be. I've only worked for myself too. And I risk it and just get the cheapest catastrophe health insurance since I'm still young-ish. I probably write off a lot more than someone working at a top SO job though so there is that benefit. Hm maybe my post doesn't have too much of a point then, hah.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#59

Post by elicash »

chimeracoder wrote: post #53
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is ideological. The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. They exist to balance one another.

> The same people decrying the wholesale existence of unions due to bad unions are very rarely willing to decry the wholesale existence of corporations due to bad corporations. Unions and corporations are just flipsides of the same coin. Unions are corporations, in every sense of the word, both legally and conceptually. Unions are just a special type of corporation that has been granted a special right: the exclusive…

No, they aren't legally or conceptually.

Legally, they're in a unique class. They're 501c5s. They have their own unique set of laws that apply to them. Conceptually, they're democratic institutions and not at all like corporations.

Irrevocable? Getting rid of them is the exact same process as starting one! You have to convince your coworkers and win a vote.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#60

Post by stale2002 »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #44
stale2002 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way that you restore balance is that you make it illegal to force people to join them, as it is in many right to work states. If unions are so great, then they can stand on their own. If they end up sucking, then people will leave them.

Except right-to-work laws allow non-union members to freeride. If we truly wanted to restore balance then people opting out of the union wouldn't be able to benefit from any of the union's negotiations. Of course then everyone would join the union so...

I don't want your union negotiation benefits, though. I don't want to be covered by the union contract.

You should be able to negotiate with your own group of people to get certain benefits, and I should be able to negotiate on my own. And then we could see who really gets the better deal.

Personally I am confident that my own deal would be better, but I have no problem with other people deciding for themselves that they would prefer whatever deal that a union was able to negotiate.

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