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How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

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Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#11

Post by [deleted] »

Kocrachon wrote: post #6
jorvi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

Living in Washington State, I've watched the Machinist Union almost cause Boeing to completely leave the state of Washington, and even though Boeing stayed, they moved a lot of their work to other plants. So yes it is a very dangerous game.

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#12

Post by [deleted] »

jorvi wrote: post #5
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#13

Post by stale2002 »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them.

Fine, join whatever private organization that you want.

But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#14

Post by epx »

jorvi wrote: post #5
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

Solve a problem and create two?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#15

Post by stale2002 »

jorvi wrote: post #5
Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

The way that you restore balance is that you make it illegal to force people to join them, as it is in many right to work states.

If unions are so great, then they can stand on their own.

If they end up sucking, then people will leave them.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#16

Post by Kocrachon »

tclancy wrote: post #10
Kocrachon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Washington State, I've watched the Machinist Union almost cause Boeing to completely leave the state of Washington, and even though Boeing stayed, they moved a lot of their work to other plants. So yes it is a very dangerous game.

Can you provide a little more detail on how the union caused them to leave and not tax incentives from other states?

WA already provides massive tax incentives, and further increased them to get them to stay. To say the massive strike going on at the time had nothing to do with it would be disingenuous.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#17

Post by tclancy »

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each other and decided not to accept the terms that had been decreed to them.

We didn't used to have great jobs for high school-educated folks, we used to have unions. Because lots of people earning 0.05x joining together are the only way to make things fair when woking for a person earning X. Or 10x.

But that only applies to the slob packing a box to send you a fidget spinner thing. Not to you brilliant coders working in Silicon Valley, obvs. Except here's a thing: I worked for at a 8-to-5 for years before going out on my own for the last decade. And now I can't seem to go back, because all the full time gigs I find quote me $US125-150k. And I make about twice that as a contractor. Nothing fancy, I haven't found some wonderful niche, I just ask for my rate and get it and work. And even after accounting for paying both sides of Social Security taxes, I make 2x the top end of whatever StackOverflow survey you want to look at.

I'm not amazing, I'm just a guy who got a decent education that was paid for in large part by my mom's salary as a teacher. Which was a result of her efforts in a union that had to go out on strike some times. Unions aren't perfect. No organization of humans ever will be. But regurgitating "facts" about why unions failed that have been drilled into you by popular media isn't a way to overcome that. It's a way to get screwed. Good luck.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#19

Post by brightball »

tclancy wrote: post #10
Kocrachon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in Washington State, I've watched the Machinist Union almost cause Boeing to completely leave the state of Washington, and even though Boeing stayed, they moved a lot of their work to other plants. So yes it is a very dangerous game.

Can you provide a little more detail on how the union caused them to leave and not tax incentives from other states?

Pretty sure this didn't help: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-unions-move-to-end-strike...

> Boeing's value has reportedly fallen by about $5.3 billion since the walkout began and that strikers have lost more than $125 million in wages

Followed by this 8 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/06/news/companies/boeing_strike...

And then this 5 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/20/news/companies/boeing-strike...

At some point, it's getting ridiculous.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#20

Post by mc32 »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

When I was putting myself thru college I took a couple of Union jobs during that time. They both left me with a poor impression. There was little positive for the company (always looking for ways to be _less_ productive) and they took my dues and I had nothing to gain from it. When I got hurt on the job (nothing serious, but still) they didn't bother to help. My impression was they were multi-parasitic, they sapped productivity from the employer and they offered little in return to members except for some pro-forma stuff.
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