How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#21

Post by elicash » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:46 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #13

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

Maybe you're special. And contracts can even be negotiated with a group to recognize individual performance! But the data is pretty clear that when workers bargain collectively, they can negotiate higher pay and better benefits.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#22

Post by flukus » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

What did your father do within the union? Did he vote for reps that were against practices like this? Did he stand for election himself? Did he advocate that the union adopt a policy sexual harassment being a valid firing offence?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#23

Post by elicash » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:48 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #15

jorvi wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions aren't bad in itself. They largely solve the power asymmetry that exists between larger companies and their employees. Its only that at a certain point unions get so big there's actually a power asymmetry the other way: unions can strongarm the companies. How to restore the balance? I have no idea.

The way that you restore balance is that you make it illegal to force people to join them, as it is in many right to work states. If unions are so great, then they can stand on their own. If they end up sucking, then people will leave them.

This is like making taxes optional.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#24

Post by jjoonathan » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:49 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #13

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

> I can get a better deal on my own

That's 80% because the supply/demand dynamics currently favor your profession, giving you leverage, and 20% because {markets reward value creation, you are good at bargaining}. Right now it's a harmless attitude, but when the weather turns, or for professions where it has already turned... not so much.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#25

Post by powera » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:49 AM UTC

This is more a story of "Why the Union movement has been dead since the 1980s".

Amazon employs tens of thousands of people. These people are trying to organize 27. And failing.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#26

Post by tomjakubowski » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:51 AM UTC

elicash wrote: post #21

stale2002 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

Maybe you're special. And contracts can even be negotiated with a group to recognize individual performance! But the data is pretty clear that when workers bargain collectively, they can negotiate higher pay and better benefits.

Indeed, collective bargaining doesn't mean that an individual has no ability to negotiate their own contract with their employer, there are just certain restrictions. See, for example, the collective bargaining done on behalf of professional athletes by unions, like the NBPA or MLBPA.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#27

Post by s_m_t » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

Isn't being a contractor like the complete opposite of being in a union?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#28

Post by danjoc » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:52 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #13

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

That sounds like the same argument made against single payer.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#29

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

What industry were / are you in?

I'd really like to hear about this from people in blue-collar jobs, with small incomes, and smaller bargaining power. I am not sure if a Silicon Valley perspective about this is necessarily representative or useful.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#30

Post by flukus » Fri, Jun 16, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #13

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

I'd be fine with this, just don't expect any of the rewards that unions fight for. You can negotiate your own wages, your own holiday leave, your own cost of living increases, your own disciplinary process, etc.

I'll stand up for your right to opt out and get none of these benefits.