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How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

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Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#31

Post by ghthor »

tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

I wonder if this issue with unions now is related to the same issue we're having in government politics, the voting system. If unions are using a first past the post system to vote in reps then the inevitable result is a concentration of power in a few parasitic individuals that and then exploit the employer and the union members for their own gain.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#32

Post by throw2016 »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

This is a bit like saying the wealthy are all bad or the poor are lazy. Sure some could be but if one takes the worst examples to draw a conclusion then it becomes idealogical.

The demonization of unions in the country is a pointless exercise and seems ideological.

Unions are an organizational structure, like industry groups or lobbying groups. Just like the latter exist to represent industry interests, unions need to exist to represent workers rights and interests. Like any other organization they can do good or bad depending on their management and objectives.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#33

Post by ghthor »

s_m_t wrote: post #27
tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

Isn't being a contractor like the complete opposite of being in a union?

Their statement is that as a contractor they are my empowered to negotiate better rates then as a full time employee. I believe this is a attempt to say that if we, software engineers, utilized a union we'd be able to negotiate better pay for ourselves.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#34

Post by scoofy »

elicash wrote: post #21
stale2002 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

Maybe you're special. And contracts can even be negotiated with a group to recognize individual performance! But the data is pretty clear that when workers bargain collectively, they can negotiate higher pay and better benefits.

I think the real issue is what "benefits" means. If benefits means healthcare, then i'm all for it. If benefits means it's nearly impossible to fire someone, or that seniority trumps performance, then it seems more like it will negatively impact many workers than it is supposed to benefit.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#35

Post by tclancy »

s_m_t wrote: post #27
tclancy wrote: post #17

Oh Hacker News, you beautiful people, let me tell you a quick story, because I am in the mood to tell a story in this current country I live in where we are going to make things Great Again by restoring industrial jobs, as though industrial jobs were ipso facto wonderful, high-paying things. As opposed to dangerous, low-paying shit work that killed the people who showed up 6+ days a week until they all looked at each…

Isn't being a contractor like the complete opposite of being in a union?

In a way, sure. But it's also the opposite of accepting the lowest-common-denominator offer/ saying "There's got to be a better deal than this". The problem is coding isn't a closed shop and can't be as currently structured.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#36

Post by tclancy »

ghthor wrote: post #33
s_m_t wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't being a contractor like the complete opposite of being in a union?

Their statement is that as a contractor they are my empowered to negotiate better rates then as a full time employee. I believe this is a attempt to say that if we, software engineers, utilized a union we'd be able to negotiate better pay for ourselves.

Yeah, that. From now on I am going to wait and let you give better responses than my own. Please don't go on strike.

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#37

Post by thedarkginger »

flukus wrote: post #30
stale2002 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with unions is that they try and force everyone to join them. Fine, join whatever private organization that you want. But please leave me out of it. I do not want to follow your ill thought out rules and I want to be able to negotiate myself. I can get a better deal on my own, and I do not want your collective bargaining that they try to force on everyone.

I'd be fine with this, just don't expect any of the rewards that unions fight for. You can negotiate your own wages, your own holiday leave, your own cost of living increases, your own disciplinary process, etc. I'll stand up for your right to opt out and get none of these benefits.

If you're in the U.S., this is an interesting layer to the labor rights debate: "right-to-work" states.

Now 28 states (including all of the South, where wages are low) have passed laws that guarantee those who opt out of unions in unionized workplaces receive the same benefits as those who are members.

As you'd guess, that works really effectively to undercut the appeal of joining a union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#38

Post by [deleted] »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

[deleted]

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#39

Post by tclancy »

brightball wrote: post #19
tclancy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide a little more detail on how the union caused them to leave and not tax incentives from other states?

Pretty sure this didn't help: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-unions-move-to-end-strike... > Boeing's value has reportedly fallen by about $5.3 billion since the walkout began and that strikers have lost more than $125 million in wages Followed by this 8 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/06/news/companies/boeing_strike... And then this 5 years later... http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/20/news/companies/boein…

Unions exercising the one power they have 3x in 15 years (by your timeline; the url dates suggest otherwise) is ridiculous? What should they have done instead?

Re: How Amazon Crushed the Union Movement (2014)

#40

Post by tanderson92 »

Kocrachon wrote: post #4

As a former member of a union, I honestly find it odd at how many people think that unions are always good. Of the two unions I was a part of and watching what my dad went through with his Union I'm actually fairly anti-union at this point in my life. I watched a guy get fired for sexual harassment, and rehired due to pressure from the Union. I watched my father not get a manager position, because of seniority ruling…

> I know unions have done a lot of great in the past, but I rarely see much good coming from them anymore. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I've had nothing but bad experiences with them in my life.

This post includes the work NYTWA did to resist the travel ban at JFK (but is otherwise irrelevant to the current discussion, so search for the relevant parts): https://thebaffler.com/outbursts/all-worked-up-nowhere-to-go...

What did your company do to show solidarity?

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