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ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#331

Post by asnowman »

tmp1991 wrote: post #154
tjpnz wrote: post #18

This may be an unpopular opinion but I still don't understand why diversity even matters here - shouldn't it be the merit of the ideas and the presentation skills of the speakers?

The trouble is, this is a very difficult position for the organizers to defend as it is easy to attack them with "So you claim that the other sex is not capable for skilled presentations, how dare you!" -comments. And likely this is something that resonates with enough people to create a storm in social media where you as the organizer end up in the middle. It is much easier to put up a more equal lineup of speakers…

>"So you claim that the other sex is not capable for skilled presentations, how dare you!"

I don't think it's particularly hard to defend yourself against that. You simply claim that for some reason women don't want to come to your conference so there wasn't enough submissions, and then promise to aim to do better. Maybe it's just me who feels that intent to fix is better than trying to cover up our problems. If i had any interest in this conference now I'd consider not going.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#332

Post by petercooper »

thrownaway114 wrote: post #68

It is really worth considering that this conference used a blind review process[1]. Subsequently, there is zero chance that the reviewer's decisions were influenced by racism or sexism. As a society, we need to consider the implications of what is going on here. In what way could this move possibly be said to be anti-racist/anti-sexist? It just isn't. If anything, abandoning your speakers because they are male/white…

Pro-diversity, ex-conference (not this one) organizer here.

I can't speak for what GitHub did or didn't do, but a common problem is that there is a huge step before review that you can't skip. You must coach, encourage, and counsel the types of people you want to submit talks! If you don't, don't be surprised if they don't submit because of the treatment or impression they have from other events in the past.

Pro-active outreach to underrepresented groups is the way to get better events and a blind review process is no panacea despite many organizers seeming to think it is.

It's suggested here that they did blind review and then wanted to tweak for diversity. That's just not how it works. You need the diversity up front in the submissions.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#333

Post by vemv »

Myrmornis wrote: post #323
vemv wrote: post #131

Will we ever accept the fact that women tend to be less inclined to do nerdy stuff (like developing Electron plugins instead of doing your actual coding job)? That doesn't imply that women are worse or unable, it's simply a matter of proportion. It's like saying men are underrepresented at yoga classes.

I'm someone who rants about PC culture so much that I'm sure I'm very boring. However, are you sure that's nature not nurture? And if it's nurture, why should we "accept" it, instead of helping our culture evolve? Certainly, the "nurture" part comes from some pretty fucked up history when it comes to gender roles and treatment of people other than white straight males in western society.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm "sure" but from observation, women which certainly have all the freedom to pick one thing or the other choose certain interests and lifestyles.

It's like trying to find causes (and solutions!) as for why my marketing friend doesn't like programming. He just isn't interested!

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#334

Post by PrimHelios »

pseudalopex wrote: post #306
concede_pluto wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my code sucks, I have exactly the same experience fixing it that a black woman would have, because the arbiter of correctness is a computer without any opinions about the author. Diversity in skill comes from having worked in different kinds of software and languages and frameworks, not going out and collecting fifty shades of node hipster.

Sometimes code sucks because the programmer doesn't realize names work differently in other cultures.[1] Sometimes it sucks because it outs LGBT kids.[2] Sometimes it sucks because nobody noticed what the team called something was also a racial slur. [1] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

Neither of those things would be better because of a black woman being a programmer.

Even as an LGBT person myself, I probably wouldn't have thought about the implications of the second one.

The first one is fixable by not being a shit programmer. You don't need to know anything about the names of other cultures, you just need to know that everything should be using Unicode, although I agree that Euro-centrism dominates programming and computer science in general.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#335

Post by bmpafa »

rufus_2 wrote: post #326
bmpafa wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem with claims like these is that they imply intent, which implies a coherent (and nefarious) effort behind large social trends. Who precisely is it that's doing this?

My first guess would be those involved in the trillion dollar diversity and inclusion industry. How many departments of government, academia, and business are there today which depend on a continued societal belief in postmodernism's collectivist explanation of oppression and victimhood? If humanity achieved the goal of absolute equality, would those currently employed in the diversity and inclusion industry simply f…

This is as specious as "well of course vaccines don't work--pharma doesn't make money if you don't get sick!" By this logic, any profession built on solving a problem can't be trusted. Car broken? Don't take it to a mechanic--they'll just make sure it breaks again! Free-market competition (even the regulated kind) solves this conflict of interests.

"Trillion dollar diversity and inclusion industry?" That's ~1/18th of the entire US GDP--which firms, etc., do you include in this sector of the economy? I can't think of a single example.

This is why it's hard to reason through these topics. Either I'm told it's verboten to even discuss the implementation details of equal-opportunity initiatives, or I'm told it's some vast global conspiracy master-minded by Pam in HR who, having apparently learned the secrets to controlling the national discourse, can find no better application for that secret than keeping her job in HR.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#336

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #267
leereeves wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women don't choose to go into tech, that's their own choice. It's not as if men went into tech because of positive social reinforcement for being a nerd. There's still a social stigma attached to it, which I'd love to see change, but it affects both men and women.

It's a choice, but it's not the same choice. When a woman signs up to be an engineer, she's signing up for long hours debugging segfaults, just like a man. But unlike a man, she's signing up to spend four years in school being one of the handful of women in her class, then entering a workforce with the likes of Uber, etc. There signing up for a life of awkward encounters with coworkers, supervisors who try to date fe…

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#337

Post by [deleted] »

macspoofing wrote: post #251
selllikesybok wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is not a stigma against "in tech". There was never a stigma against it, really. And yes, men largely do get into stem fields because there is huge positive reinforcement and many positive role models.

>There is not a stigma against "in tech". There was never a stigma against it, really. Yeah. Traditionally all the cool kids were the math and computer whizes with glasses and pocket protectors - not the star football player. Yeah. Got it. >And yes, men largely do get into stem fields because there is huge positive reinforcement and many positive role models. Uh huh. Can you quantify that? Or did you just sit down an…

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#338

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #291
macspoofing wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is your explanation for the underrepresentation of black people and women in engineering besides structural racism and sexism? Null hypothesis. YOU are making an unsubstantiated claim. What is YOUR proof of this structural racism. And feel free to define your terms, because I have no effin clue what 'structural racism' is. Here's an alternative explanation, people are influenced by the sub-cultures they are in…

We known several things as fact. We know overt and open oppression of black people happened as recently as the 1970s and 1980s. (I'd say it's still happening, but the fact that it did happen in the recent past is indisputable.) And we know that black households make only 60% as much at the median as white households. All I'm doing is suggesting a causal relationship between the two. Since you reject my hypothesis, I'…

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#339

Post by [deleted] »

macspoofing wrote: post #264
nojvek wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see this from another point of view. Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story. She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful. She slowly drops out and leaves the industry and goes somewhere where she can make friends like her. Now suppose she sees plenty of female speakers and sh…

>Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story. > >She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful. Does a person like that actually exist? Have you ever met a person that was so discouraged and distraught by the fact that many tech conferences have more white male speakers that she decid…

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