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ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#251

Post by macspoofing »

selllikesybok wrote: post #250
leereeves wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women don't choose to go into tech, that's their own choice. It's not as if men went into tech because of positive social reinforcement for being a nerd. There's still a social stigma attached to it, which I'd love to see change, but it affects both men and women.

There is not a stigma against "in tech". There was never a stigma against it, really. And yes, men largely do get into stem fields because there is huge positive reinforcement and many positive role models.

>There is not a stigma against "in tech". There was never a stigma against it, really.

Yeah. Traditionally all the cool kids were the math and computer whizes with glasses and pocket protectors - not the star football player. Yeah. Got it.

>And yes, men largely do get into stem fields because there is huge positive reinforcement and many positive role models.

Uh huh. Can you quantify that? Or did you just sit down and think really really really hard about it so it must be true.

>and many positive role models

Is that actually a real problem? Are you saying a white kid will be dissuaded from playing basketball, or even being an NBA fan because the best players are black?

In similar spirit, are you really trying to argue that a young girl will not be able to be inspired by Woz, or Jobs, or Elon Musk because they are men? What dystopian, ugly world are you living in?

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#252

Post by chrisallenlane »

nojvek wrote: post #235
TeMPOraL wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. Were I accepted and later dumped like this, I'd feel I was subject to actual gender/race discrimination. The whole thing is ridiculous. To fight perceived discrimination, those people are doing even more direct and overt discrimination.

I see this from another point of view. Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story. She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful. She slowly drops out and leaves the industry and goes somewhere where she can make friends like her. Now suppose she sees plenty of female speakers and sh…

> Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story.

How does cancelling the conference help anybody? The minority of women that may have otherwise met and inspired each other no will no longer meet. Everyone is worse off.

> Once the cycle of people being motivated and seeing others like you starts, you see a diverse set of candidates joining the industry.

Do you think this really applies in the computer industry? I've been doing this for a while, and at no point have I had - or cared to have - any heroes to emulate. I work with computers because I like computers - not because I like people!

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#253

Post by concede_pluto »

macspoofing wrote: post #36
tjpnz wrote: post #18

This may be an unpopular opinion but I still don't understand why diversity even matters here - shouldn't it be the merit of the ideas and the presentation skills of the speakers?

I don't actually know anyone who concerns themselves with identity politics to the extent they would mothball their tech conference. Who are these people who make these kinds of decisions?

It's GitHub HR and their ongoing war against meritocracy.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#254

Post by concede_pluto »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #137
PrimHelios wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never said anything about advocating for unqualified people. That's what being against meritocracy means. A system based on something other than merit. If the people in charge aren't the people with the most merit, they aren't really qualified. >Almost all Fortune 1000+ companies are doing this today Appeal to popularity is a fallacy > And it's been conclusively shown to be improving the quality and strength of th…

>A system based on something other than merit. If the people in charge aren't the people with the most merit, they aren't really qualified. Merit isn't an absolute, there's no test that shows what your merit would be to a company. Diversity adds to your merit, both through positive PR and through having a range of experiences to draw from when dealing with a problem.

If my code sucks, I have exactly the same experience fixing it that a black woman would have, because the arbiter of correctness is a computer without any opinions about the author. Diversity in skill comes from having worked in different kinds of software and languages and frameworks, not going out and collecting fifty shades of node hipster.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#255

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

pdimitar wrote: post #216
rayiner wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. faces challenges the Netherlands does not. Take race for example. One out of every eight Americans are here because their ancestors were slaves. That's not the distant past. Heck, many people today are fighting for the right to commemorate the pro-slavery side of that story. More recently, if Bill Gates had been born in the south, he likely would have gone to a racially-segregated school. And the effects of…

With the risk of being downvoted, let me cite George Carlin regarding the "sensitivity training": "Hey, if you need a special training to realize you can't shove large cumbersome objects up somebody's ass, then maybe you're too fucked up to be in the police force in the first place. ... Let's try something else -- intelligence and decency. You never can tell, it might just work, it certainly has never been tried befo…

I think it's better to cite and learn from people who actually have to deal with problems on the ground instead of those who have the luxury of earning money and fame by uttering platitudes complaining and pontificating about them.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#256

Post by Tehnix »

z5h wrote: post #26

Social justice is not justice. Social justice is not compatible with truth (science, math, physics, software engineering, etc). https://youtu.be/Gatn5ameRr8

Didn't expect to find such a gem here - a really good talk! I feel like he hits a lot of points of the current problems and he literally goes into why things such as what the ElectronConf just did is wrong (not specifically ElectronConf of course, but speakers and conferences).

Thanks! :)

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#257

Post by pdimitar »

kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #255
pdimitar wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the risk of being downvoted, let me cite George Carlin regarding the "sensitivity training": "Hey, if you need a special training to realize you can't shove large cumbersome objects up somebody's ass, then maybe you're too fucked up to be in the police force in the first place. ... Let's try something else -- intelligence and decency. You never can tell, it might just work, it certainly has never been tried befo…

I think it's better to cite and learn from people who actually have to deal with problems on the ground instead of those who have the luxury of earning money and fame by uttering platitudes complaining and pontificating about them.

You're vastly underestimating people's ability to learn about emotions, work, and life in general. It doesn't matter much in what area you're in -- when you're 35 and on, most people share a lot of common insights in many areas of life. One of the names for "common sense", I believe, although I am sure that partial definition is far from being precise.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#258

Post by pdimitar »

rayiner wrote: post #231
pdimitar wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the risk of being downvoted, let me cite George Carlin regarding the "sensitivity training": "Hey, if you need a special training to realize you can't shove large cumbersome objects up somebody's ass, then maybe you're too fucked up to be in the police force in the first place. ... Let's try something else -- intelligence and decency. You never can tell, it might just work, it certainly has never been tried befo…

Okay, so what do you do when people don't have intelligence and decency?

Carlin was referring to a specific case when a bunch of white cops sexually assaulted a black man with inanimate objects (translation: putting a metal tube in his ass).

Instead of these people being relentlessly persecuted and jailed, they received "sensitivity training".

So yeah, I'd sue them to hell and back, and will fire any person in the chain of command who even remotely resists that decision. Which of course wouldn't ever happen, for one reason or another. I don't know the reason(s) but it's baffling that these people actually ran free, don't you think?

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#259

Post by thescribe »

macspoofing wrote: post #36
tjpnz wrote: post #18

This may be an unpopular opinion but I still don't understand why diversity even matters here - shouldn't it be the merit of the ideas and the presentation skills of the speakers?

I don't actually know anyone who concerns themselves with identity politics to the extent they would mothball their tech conference. Who are these people who make these kinds of decisions?

I'm becoming convinced they are saboteurs. See all the projects that descended into chaos over codes of conduct.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#260

Post by thescribe »

viraptor wrote: post #84
smokeyj wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if I heard my talk was delayed so the conference can be rebalanced / less of a white sausage party, I'd be glad Maybe the solution is to stop being racist and sexist.

You seem to imply that being happy to be surrounded with a more gender/race diverse crowd than the typical 90s IT conference is either racist or sexist. I just don't understand that argument.

If the makeup matters enough to cause an emotion then yes you are racist/sexist.
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