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ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

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Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#291

Post by rayiner »

macspoofing wrote: post #271
rayiner wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your explanation for the underrepresentation of black people and women in engineering besides structural racism and sexism? If the answer is "self selection," explain to me what could possibly cause women and black people to self-select out of high paying interesting jobs?

>What is your explanation for the underrepresentation of black people and women in engineering besides structural racism and sexism? Null hypothesis. YOU are making an unsubstantiated claim. What is YOUR proof of this structural racism. And feel free to define your terms, because I have no effin clue what 'structural racism' is. Here's an alternative explanation, people are influenced by the sub-cultures they are in…

We known several things as fact. We know overt and open oppression of black people happened as recently as the 1970s and 1980s. (I'd say it's still happening, but the fact that it did happen in the recent past is indisputable.) And we know that black households make only 60% as much at the median as white households. All I'm doing is suggesting a causal relationship between the two.

Since you reject my hypothesis, I'm asking you to suggest an alternative. And your alternative appears to be, "I don't know why, but for some reason black people just don't like money." Which doesn't make any goddamn sense. Sure individuals are different, but why would we expect groups of people to have such distinct preferences? To me your theory smacks of rationalization.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#292

Post by smsm42 »

throwaway47861 wrote: post #286
smsm42 wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who owned a secure email provider So he probably was on some kind of a radar. Are you? Then you concern is completely warranted. Are not? Then it's not.

It's a slippery slope kind of situation. Once they start doing it and see they can get away with it, then they start widening the circle.

I'm not advocating or defending them. Of course they should be called out on any case of abuse, and aggressively. With that, you also need to rationally evaluate if your personal probability is high enough to worry about it (especially to the point of not visiting a country just because of that), and for most people it just isn't.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#293

Post by smsm42 »

rayiner wrote: post #288
smsm42 wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This thinking is exactly the problem. "There are a lot of people with dark skin in basketball, your skin color is looking like theirs, therefore your path to success must be basketball". But the solution you seem to be implying is even worse - "ok, we succeeded in convincing you your skin color determines your path in life. Congrats to us. But now we'll close this path for you because we already have too many people…

Great. Now convince all the black teenagers living in the same segregated neighborhoods black people lived in a century ago (because it was illegal for them to live in the other side of this or that road) that skin color doesn't determine their path in life.

I can't, of course. But it's not about me, is it? It's about how to fix it. And I think getting out of "race determines everything" mentality is part of fixing it, regardless of what I personally can or can't do. Yes, there was a lot of harm and injustice done to black people in the US in the past, and some of it continues even to this day. It must be fixed. I haven't seen an instance of concentrating on racial quotas fixing it though. I don't think racism can be fixed with racial quotas.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#294

Post by smsm42 »

charlescearl wrote: post #61
netsharc wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if a few $MINORITY_GROUP speakers get in in the next round. Are they there because of merit, or because of optics? As a minority I would feel a bit patronized. And won't the next conference feel like a guy saying "I'm not racist, I have a black friend."?

Not necessarily, but it's really hard to say without them being more open about what their goals were in the first place! Like maybe they were trying to get some legit outreach going but it fell through, who knows? To me, the work of Baldwin, Ta-Nehisi Coates is that the dialog around racism has to be open, transparent, honest. Especially becomes important if you're developing tech that will impact everyday people. A…

I am still struggling to figure out who is being oppressed here. So, some folks wanted to promote some technology. Some other folks felt excited about it and submitted talks. After checking the identity of the speakers, it turned out it doesn't fit the wishes of the organizers, so the conference is cancelled. So Electron folks don't get the promotion, speakers don't get to speak, potential listeners don't get to listen. Was it because it was necessary to prevent oppression? Of whom?

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#295

Post by leereeves »

rayiner wrote: post #291
macspoofing wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What is your explanation for the underrepresentation of black people and women in engineering besides structural racism and sexism? Null hypothesis. YOU are making an unsubstantiated claim. What is YOUR proof of this structural racism. And feel free to define your terms, because I have no effin clue what 'structural racism' is. Here's an alternative explanation, people are influenced by the sub-cultures they are in…

We known several things as fact. We know overt and open oppression of black people happened as recently as the 1970s and 1980s. (I'd say it's still happening, but the fact that it did happen in the recent past is indisputable.) And we know that black households make only 60% as much at the median as white households. All I'm doing is suggesting a causal relationship between the two. Since you reject my hypothesis, I'…

That's surely a factor, but there are many other factors that have to be considered: the stigma against "acting white", Democratic benefit programs that breed dependency and make wealth building almost impossible, violence, fatherless families [1]. The opportunities for success exist; now, it's up to people to work for success.

1: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/...

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#296

Post by SocialEngin33r »

selllikesybok wrote: post #240
macspoofing wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the "structural inequality" in this case? That there are more men than women in tech? If so, what is the 'structure' that causes this inequality?

Turtles, all the way down. ---- Or to be less glib, that's a great question, and like many, not simple to answer well. Mostly, it seems like a lack of positive reinforcement and role models (leading to self selection out at early ages), mixed with sexism in a a variety of forms (leading to lack of opportunities, or hostile environment and self selection out at later ages). But that's an oversimplification.

> Mostly, it seems like a lack of positive reinforcement and role models

If one presupposes that men and women are literally just the same. As in they have the same distribution of proclivities and personality traits across their gender this would be the most logical conclusion to reach.

As an aside. Anyone ever heard of David Reimer? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#297

Post by SocialEngin33r »

rayiner wrote: post #160
Tehnix wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely agree with this view, and it's perhaps also why I really can't understand choices like these, to cancel an event, because of the genders of the people speaking? Why does that even matter? If what another commenter mentioned[0][1], that they did blind-reviews of the papers, then this is actually quite appalling to me and sends the reverse signal that we don't really care about your paper, as long as you f…

PC culture is a frustrated reaction to how fucked up America is with regard to race. Look at the income/health statistics between blacks and whites, or go live in an inner-city. It's mind blowing. It's a problem we created as a society and we're not doing anything to fix it. So we've resorted to counting the number of different color people at coding conferences.

I appreciate your concern Mr. Hashem, but I doubt you had anything to do with the state of our society in the USA. Racial problems were baked into the cake here, so to speak.

Insofar as being "fucked up with regards to race." I've heard there are literal open market slave auctions going on in the Middle East.

Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestiniens.

India has a brutal caste system.

That's all worse than section 8 housing IMHO.

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#298

Post by bassman9000 »

nojvek wrote: post #235
TeMPOraL wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally. Were I accepted and later dumped like this, I'd feel I was subject to actual gender/race discrimination. The whole thing is ridiculous. To fight perceived discrimination, those people are doing even more direct and overt discrimination.

I see this from another point of view. Suppose a female new grad goes to Electronconf and sees all male speakers. Suppose she goes to other conferences and it's the same story. She feels there's no way she'll be able to break ground and be recognized as successful. She slowly drops out and leaves the industry and goes somewhere where she can make friends like her. Now suppose she sees plenty of female speakers and sh…

Wow, what a weak view of women.

Do you think Marie Curie or Ada Lovelace were motivated by the amount of women in science and engineering?

Is this a joke to perpetuate the "can't go alone to the bathroom" meme?

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#299

Post by bassman9000 »

tjpnz wrote: post #18

This may be an unpopular opinion but I still don't understand why diversity even matters here - shouldn't it be the merit of the ideas and the presentation skills of the speakers?

It's sad this could be considered an unpopular opinion

Re: ElectronConf postponed until a “more diverse slate of speakers” can be delivered

#300

Post by [deleted] »

keerthiko wrote: post #35
TokenDiversity wrote: post #8

I am an Indian (मैं भारतीय हूं‌) but as long as there are people who put token diversity over true meritocracy, there will never be hope for the downtrodden. This entire thing is such a farce.

What is needed isn't a "true" meritocracy -- evaluating merit of output independent of all other factors--, but affirmative action, to uplift and improve the overall quality. This action by ElectronConf is an attempt at affirmative action, but winds up being the opposite. Affirmative action is where you reach out, support and encourage those that represent the diversity you want. Meanwhile this (as communicated here)…

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