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Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

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Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#241

Post by ska »

potatolicious wrote: post #205
ska wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k. Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general,…

> "Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job." I'm a Canadian that moved to the US for work - this multiple sounds entirely plausible, in fact it sounds like a conservative estimate. In major tech hubs the multiple is closer to 3-4x. > "Much more realistic is a 30% bump" This is not at all realistic - I know many Canadians working in the US as developers…

Being HN, you have to be careful of selection bias. I'm sure many of us know someone who left a 150k/yr job in Vancouver, say, for 400k in the valley. Or may be that someone.

But to suggest this is th norm for software jobs across both countries? The stats just don't support it.

3-4x is crazy. You make it sound like the US is crawling with tech jobs paying > 500k for mid-career jobs. It just not so.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#242

Post by ska »

shados wrote: post #206
potatolicious wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general, for the same job." I'm a Canadian that moved to the US for work - this multiple sounds entirely plausible, in fact it sounds like a conservative estimate. In major tech hubs the multiple is closer to 3-4x. > "Much more realistic is a 30% bump" This is not at all realistic - I know many Canadians working in the US as developers…

Yup, exactly. I mean, I can see it happening frequently the way the person who replied to me said it. If you're in a hot area in Canada that pays decently (I think Toronto is probably not bad, I never worked there), you probably can hit 100k? Then if you move in a tech hub and you're not all that, 135-140k is possible. Then your multiplier isn't that high. But if you were making 70-80k in Canada then hit the US and d…

And if you are making 150k + RSUs + bonus in Canada do you really think you'll get a 3-4x larger offer in the US?

Again, I'm not denying that vastly more of these opportunities exist in the US, particularly in a few locations. But that doesn't factor into the majority of tech jobs on either side of the border.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#243

Post by ska »

shados wrote: post #202
ska wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Path dependence and all that, so I'm sure this is how things worked out for you. People should be aware though, your example isn't even close to usual. Work the numbers for a simple case - for round numbers take 100k/yr and 1000/month disposable. To do 8x that you are adding basically another 100k, post tax - so add another 35 k. Do at this rate you have a salary multiple of 2.35. This just doesn't happen in general,…

2.5x sounds about right post tax, post expenses, including higher rent, for the same role. That's already a huge difference But as you mentioned, unless you compare different jobs: the same opportunities simply don't exist up there. Making 300k, 400k or more? Its certainly not common in NYC or SF, but if you try hard enough, and shoot for it, its possible. Up north? Maybe as an exec, but as an individual contributor…

Seeing a noticeable bump in discretionary income after tax is very realistic - on average taxes are a bit lower, salaries are a bit higher. Seeing an 8-fold increase is unlikely.

You are right that there are many more top tier opportunities (although they do cost in Canada in small numbers) - but by definition nearly, this doesn't apply to most developers.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#244

Post by nandemo »

GuiA wrote: post #183
inputcoffee wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always use the example of Japan. $1 = 109 Yen, so do people think Japan costs 1/100th of what the US does? Japan is a good example because people have an idea that it is a rich, expensive country.

I don’t think anyone but the daftest people think that Japan costs 1/100th of what the US does. Living in Japan with a Japanese lifestyle is not that expensive. I have many Japanese friends living in Tokyo for under $1.5-2k a month. They’re not living in luxury, but they quite enjoy their lives, travel every once in a while, etc. You won’t be doing that in SF (and Tokyo is a much more pleasant city than SF in more wa…

The point that grandparent and ohhhwell are making is, nobody says "I came to Japan and now my salary is 100x my previous salary in nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 99% of your salary)". But for some reason people do say things like that when the currencies involved are USD/CAD/GBP/EUR. I guess it's just not as obviously "wrong".

Just normalize everything to a single currency; we can still talk about differences in cost of living. Sure, exchange rate fluctuations can be related to the cost of living, but it's not everything.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#245

Post by vkou »

int_19h wrote: post #224
vkou wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of living in Vancouver is just as high as the cost of living in Seattle. This is after the Canadian dollar tanked. In fact, right now, the cost of buying a house in Seattle is much, much lower. Engineer wages in Seattle were ~30-100% higher - before the Canadian dollar tanked. Now they are ~50-160% higher.

Vancouver is a bit of a special case because of how insane the property prices are there. It's like the Canadian SF, except without the job market.

It's also the only major Canadian city in the same time zone as Silicon Valley... And is three hours away from Seattle.

I suppose there's also Victoria, but there's no tech jobs there.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#246

Post by yazaddaruvala »

indemnity wrote: post #213
defined wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is a Commonwealth thing? The "tall poppy" syndrome is well-known in NZ and AUS, too.

As a recent immigrant to NZ this annoys the hell out of me. Excellence should be rewarded and strived for, but people prefer comfortable mediocrity, because then they don’t feel like they’re underachieving.

I'll try to self-analyze and hopefully shed some light:

I moved from India (Mumbai) when I was 10, to grow up in Vancouver. I've previously worked in NY, and I now work in Seattle (you can guess where), but think about moving back to Vancouver all the time to live a life of "mediocrity" and "underachieving".

In both India and America, the mindset is "If you're not first you're last", but my mindset after growing up in Vancouver: "I don't need to be first, I just need to hold my own and stay with the pack". For some reason (unclear how/when/why I learned this) growing up in Canada: 1. I learned to feel guilty for my successes (lol make it go away!). 2. I learnt very quickly, that getting one rank higher at something competitive keeps getting exponentially harder (i.e. I'd be less happy). To sum it up: Its not just about victory, but the balance of effort to victory, and the happiness from being a part of a community that counts.

However, its hard to reconcile. The Indian/American mentalities in me, especially about career, are very much a part of me. I think I compromised on "I don't need to be first, but should be at least 1 or 2 std deviations above median". As a result, I don't work in NY or SF, I live in Seattle, for the money but have a great work life balance, thinking every now and then if its it the right time to move back to Vancouver.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#247

Post by 0xADEADBEE »

indemnity wrote: post #213
defined wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if this is a Commonwealth thing? The "tall poppy" syndrome is well-known in NZ and AUS, too.

As a recent immigrant to NZ this annoys the hell out of me. Excellence should be rewarded and strived for, but people prefer comfortable mediocrity, because then they don’t feel like they’re underachieving.

Same situation and your appraisal is completely consistent with my experience. Working at some supposedly leading agencies has only served to horrify, to the point I've started reverse interviewing employers on ComSci fundamentals to ensure I'm not working somewhere totally hopeless. I'm unsure if the New Zealand education system is behind its European counterparts or if I've just been unlucky but I'm curious to find out. I won't be applying for residency.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#248

Post by nandemo »

pavement wrote: post #163

I bet a number of countries in addition to Canada find the current scenario highly beneficial.

Canada has some advantages: English is an official language, it already has a legal and administrative system in place to receive qualified immigrants from almost everywhere, and a public that's favorable to it.

AFAIK the only other developed country that comes close is Australia.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#249

Post by bonzini »

ranit wrote: post #229
didibus wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest differen…

> It's kind of crazy that in the US, ... a 9 month dev boot camp can have you earn similar to many university level degrees. This speaks more about the relevance of these [university level] degrees than how high dev salaries are.

Entry salaries are only part of the story. What are your career prospects, or how fast can you expect to get promoted?

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#250

Post by sedachv »

int_19h wrote: post #233
jimmyk wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will age very well. Successful countries that behave otherwise don't stay successful for that long. If a country doesn't put its interests first, who will?

Broadly controlling human migration at the border is a relatively recent thing (as in, just over a century). Taking US as an example where this sort of thing is a controversial political topic today - in most of the 19th century, if you had access to any means of transportation necessary to get there (including walking across the border from, say, Mexico or Canada), that was all you needed to become a legal resident.…

> Taking US as an example where this sort of thing is a controversial political topic today - in most of the 19th century, if you had access to any means of transportation necessary to get there (including walking across the border from, say, Mexico or Canada), that was all you needed to become a legal resident. Yet the country did just fine.

The great land border lockdown between the United States and Canada or Mexico really started after September 11, 2001. The current border controls are extremely excessive by comparison, and the current US president's proposals are completely insane by 20th century standards. Many people born in the 1990s do not realize just how unusual the current border lock-down situation is.

To add an anecdote, the most unusual Canada/US immigration story I know is an acquaintance, US citizen by birth, who had illegally immigrated to Canada and was an undocumented under-the-table cash worker for almost a decade by the time I met him in 2010. One of his American grandparents originally came from Canada by literally swimming across a lake in the 1930s to immigrate to the United States.

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