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Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

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Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#171

Post by Pxtl »

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #124
Pxtl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quick googling says income tax has doubled in 2017. reply This is not true, and was likely posted by a conservative hardliners. Canada uses an after-price sales tax like the USA, but in higher quantities - it will vary between 5% and 13% depending on province. Also, all provinces are currently implementing a carbon pricing system, so some provinces will have an additional sales tax on carbon intensive goods like ga…

Beer prices in Ontario are pretty insane (about twice as expensive) compared to the bordering US states even factoring in the exchange rate. I'm used to $11 12 packs of Molson on the MI side of the border, walking into a Beer Store in ON is always a price shock.

That's entirely due to sin taxes, though. Not the higher "cost of living". If liquor taxes have an appreciable impact on your budget on a middle class programmer's salary, you have a problem and it's not the money.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#172

Post by desdiv »

geodel wrote: post #160
calvinbhai wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Influx of immigrants, with zero shackling of immigrants == good chances of successful entrepreneurship. In a few months/years, students from India and China going to US for grad studies will slow down, and most of them chosing Canada over US. In a few years, if US continues its systematic and unfair ways of keeping citizens of India and China from immigrating to US, and Canada continues its policy of courting immigra…

> if US continues its systematic and unfair ways of keeping citizens of India and China from immigrating to US Canadian policy was always much easier than US for immigration. I wonder then why Indian/Chinese did not go in much larger numbers to Canada as compared to US.

>I wonder then why Indian/Chinese did not go in much larger numbers to Canada as compared to US.

They did, and they still do:

Canada's percentage of foreign born population: 20.6% [0]

US's percentage of foreign born population: 13% [1]

[0] http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-010-x/99-01...

[1] https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brookings-now/2013/10/03/what...

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#173

Post by MichaelGG »

goodcanadian wrote: post #132
legolas2412 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, could you share the rough numbers? I'm shocked to hear this. Even In India Google/MSFT pay atleast 25k$ annually to new hires (not including stocks), Purchasing power wise that is around 100k$, right where the US salaries are. US interns get paid around 6-8k a month, let's be generous and say 9k$. Are you saying that as a full time dev you could only earn 3k$ a month? Looks like you could earn more as a garbage…

I am not the person you replied to, but US$3000 is about CA$4000 or CA$48000 per year. For a junior software development position, that does seem to be in the ballpark of what gets offered in Canada.

On the higher end, I'm told 120K seems to be quite upper end for senior development -- this is near Toronto. That even at AMD, getting over 120K was very hard and rare - that's just $90K USD.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#174

Post by mahyarm »

devopsforlyfe wrote: post #151
linkregister wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that the market would care about professionally-certified coders. Accountants need to adhere to local and federal laws for GAAP accounting. Lawyers need to be familiar with local laws where they practice, and courts are gatekeepers to the practice of law. Doctors' specialization is protected by law for safety and liability purposes. Paralegals and specialized software is a market response to the bottlen…

> Doctors' specialization is protected by law for safety and liability purposes. Yet programmers writing embedded software for medical devices are not regulated for safety and reliability purposes, as far as I know. Why is that?

Because they are not real-time practitioners, so onerous testing processes can substitute. It's the same reason why drug researchers are not licensed.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#175

Post by avip »

didibus wrote: post #135
eigenvector wrote: post #5

"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eage…

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest differen…

>In a way, Canada pays decently. You'll be very comfortable as an engineer in Canada, even with a large family.

Have you actually tried that, or just hyperbolizing? Many devs in Canada net 4-5K/m. Rent in Vancouver would easily be 1.5-2.5K/m for a "large family". That's not a "very comfortable" spot.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#176

Post by linkregister »

jamiek88 wrote: post #144
linkregister wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous counterexamples throughout the Canadian economy: banking, oil & gas, mining, agriculture, etc. Software investment is probably the only sector that is undercapitalized in Canada.

Well you've basically stated those industries that are specifically and geographically tied to Canada. Of course commodities and the financial system to support them as well as local consumer banking have that funding. All nations do. It is the 'soft' economy outside of that where the differences lie.

There are at least 50 nations that receive most of their financing from foreign sources.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#177

Post by MichaelGG »

rb808 wrote: post #101

I dont understand the hate on Canadian salaries. Its a safer, more liberal country that looks after its poorest. If you want cut throat lifestyle that pays the most - with the guy who cooked you dinner keeping one eye out for an ICE van, your ex-slaves in prison and some homeless guy going through your dumpster - you'll love the US. If you want to live a fairer society (Canada, France, Germany, Australia etc) don't c…

>ICE van No, because in Canada the acronym is CBSA.

Anyways I don't see how these follow each other at all. What's shitty tech salaries in Canada to do with any of this?

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#178

Post by defined »

JPKab wrote: post #137
personjerry wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money That is a pattern I've noticed in Canada in contrast to the US in fact; We settle for "good enough" or "profitable" but not the "moonshots" or strive to be "the best". Whether in tech, business, or even global influence, we are a "middle power" and we seem happy about it (my high school politics teacher explains that this is a result of constantly bein…

The beardy dude that started Vice (can't remember his name) has talked about disliking this aspect of Canadian culture. He stated that they have a "cut the tall trees" mentality, and doesn't believe he could have been successful had he stayed in Canada.

I wonder if this is a Commonwealth thing? The "tall poppy" syndrome is well-known in NZ and AUS, too.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#179

Post by linkregister »

acchow wrote: post #142
linkregister wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

? You have completely changed your goalposts. I will remind you of your previous points: 1. Canadian companies don't make much money so they can't afford high salaries 2. Canadian companies don't forecast they will have high growth after expensive hires. Please tell me if I have misinterpreted your comment.

Sorry, let me clarify. My primary point was "The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money" (quoting myself). Companies won't pay top dollar if they don't think they will make more money by hiring top talent (#2 above), or they don't have the money to afford the top talent (#1 above), or...let me add #3: Companies won't pay more for top talent if they can acquire that talent for cheaper (which happens w…

I agree with #3; I dispute #1 and #2 are true in Canada.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#180

Post by eigenvector »

didibus wrote: post #135
eigenvector wrote: post #5

"For years, Canada's tech industry has watched in frustration as Microsoft and Google hired the country's top computer science grads for high-paying jobs in Seattle and Silicon Valley. Now Canada believes it has found a new way to lure American and international tech workers." Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? Let's see. "Canadian tech companies are eage…

I'd love it so much if Canada had comparable salaries. I'd move back for sure, at least if it came 10% within Seattle and SV. But, I'm not sure it's possible for companies to do so. I mean, first of all, in the US, outside of a few cities like NY, SV, Seattle, Bellevue, you start to see lower pay which gets closer to Canadian pay. Appart from that, Canada just doesn't have the same market. That's the biggest differen…

Here's my issue with your argument. The article we're commenting on is about Canadian companies being frustrated cause Google/Facebook/Microsoft/Apple hire away all the best Canadian talent.

As a rule, Canadian citizens are highly mobile to the US due to the TN visa, the lack of a language barrier, close proximity and the extreme similarity of cultures.

So if Canadian companies actually need that talent, and for some structural reason related to being located in Canada they are unable to pay for it, then their business isn't viable. Full stop.

If Canadian businesses are just less profitable and less productive and therefore can only afford lower wages, that's fine. They will get the talent that isn't mobile for one reason or another. Some Canadians choose to stay in spite of the lower pay, some developers just aren't able to get hired at top US companies, and Canadian immigrants who aren't yet citizens are mostly locked out of the US job market.

The problem arises when Canadian business think they can keep the low pay and get people to turn down Google to stay in Toronto. If you're trying to do, say, an AI-focused startup in Canada and you think you're going to hire top people away from Google for $100,000 CAD because Trump, that's not going to happen.

So if Canada wants to have companies that aren't "X but for Canada" but rather actual global internet companies, they should expect to pay global internet company wages.

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