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Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

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Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#111

Post by legolas2412 »

uw_rob wrote: post #92
acchow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money after hiring more.

Even the big companies pay less in Canada. I love my home but I am making 3x the money as an intern than I would as a full time dev in Toronto. Unfortunately I cannot stay.

Huh, could you share the rough numbers? I'm shocked to hear this.

Even In India Google/MSFT pay atleast 25k$ annually to new hires (not including stocks), Purchasing power wise that is around 100k$, right where the US salaries are.

US interns get paid around 6-8k a month, let's be generous and say 9k$. Are you saying that as a full time dev you could only earn 3k$ a month? Looks like you could earn more as a garbage truck driver?

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#112

Post by shados »

cylinder wrote: post #100
shados wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almos…

Doesn't this just show something isn't right in the US? Why aren't firms hiring more in their international offices if the cost of employing developers is 3x in the US vs even advanced nations with solid talent?

As mentioned, its a pain in the ass to manage all of those offices. Also, the cost of running those offices, with all the different laws you might be unfamiliar with, can be complicated.

I worked for a company that did just that: open an office in Canada in the same timezone as their American HQ to cut cost. The taxes, expenses, and complying with local laws at large scale (think: Quebec language laws) are real, and they almost ended up killing the office because the cost was too high. They absolutely were hiring more in the American office in the end from a pure cost perspective, and using the Canadian one to scale even though it was super expensive to run.

Now, its very likely it was them simply being inefficient and unprepared for it, but it doesn't really matter: its a real issue.

Now in the case of my current employer, we absolutely have international offices where getting head count is much cheaper, but to scale, we need offices everywhere where there's talent, and that includes in the big american metros. In my case, I just moved to get the $$$ of the American offices, that's all :)

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#113

Post by coredog64 »

alphonsegaston wrote: post #28

While I agree with this sentiment overall, what pay differential can compensate for a more general stability? It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster, but that's not the case in the US. And by the same token, almost no amount of pay (within the tech spectrum) could convince me to live in the cities in Texas where right-wing extrem…

> It would be great if someone could get a high-paying job and not worry about being bankrupted by an unforeseen medical disaster

Serious question. How does the following situation work in Canada?

You make a bunch of money and so you buy a house and car appropriate for your salary. You then get cancer (or your arm falls off, or whatever) and you lose your job. Who makes that house and car payment for you?

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#114

Post by [deleted] »

shados wrote: post #87
schwap wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it... paying more so people don't have to choose between their country and financial security? I don't think many software developers in Canada are facing that choice. Is there the opportunity to be 'more' secure in the States? Sure. But being a developer in Canada is hardly a bleak proposition.

After living expenses, health insurance, taxes, etc, just moving south my net income tripled. 5 years later, I'm pushing something like 8x what disposable income would have been by now if I compare with my old colleagues. And that's even after I take out the extra expenses of my mortgage being 11x what my rent used to be (by choice, it was "only" 4x higher originally, since I lived in a rent controlled area for almos…

[deleted]

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#115

Post by linkregister »

acchow wrote: post #84
linkregister wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this holds water since Amazon engineers in Vancouver, five hours north of Seattle, experience a 30% pay differential from their U.S. counterparts. The simple fact is that quality Canadian engineers will accept jobs for lower pay. I expect that over time, the software engineering market will demand higher pay. I hope OP does start that company in Waterloo to kickstart the whole process.

You haven't countered my point at all....Amazon Vancouver isn't going to offer Seattle comp if no one else in Vancouver is. It takes multiple companies all making bay-area-style profits to create upward pressure on labor prices to end up with bay-area-style salaries.

?

You have completely changed your goalposts. I will remind you of your previous points:

1. Canadian companies don't make much money so they can't afford high salaries

2. Canadian companies don't forecast they will have high growth after expensive hires.

Please tell me if I have misinterpreted your comment.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#116

Post by legolas2412 »

binarymax wrote: post #78
UweSchmidt wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With immigration you will definitively focus on highly educated people, people who have skills needed in the respective industries and who are likely to fit in well culturally. How would you regulate immigration?

I'd open up all the borders without restriction. It would be a madhouse for the first decade but then the world would be much better off in the long run. It would be the first step in a united planet rather than the pettiness we suffer now with individual competing states.

I think that would only come to pass if you set up a global planet-wide government at the same time.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#117

Post by calvinbhai »

derefr wrote: post #64
Pxtl wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because software isn't a zero sum game. Having "too many developers" in a community doesn't mean a glut of developers fighting for scraps, it means Silicon Valley. It means you get bigger companies doing bigger things with bigger success which means bigger quantities of cash whirling around up for grabs. Being the only plumber in town means you can charge whatever you want. Being the only developer in town means you'…

Software isn't precisely zero-sum, but it's zero-sum assuming a static supply of companies to work for. Which ends up being the case in Canada, since 1. there isn't much of a culture of entrepreneurship; 2. there are few VCs, and they're pretty much all hyper-conservative, to the point that they may as well be banks.

Influx of immigrants, with zero shackling of immigrants == good chances of successful entrepreneurship.

In a few months/years, students from India and China going to US for grad studies will slow down, and most of them chosing Canada over US.

In a few years, if US continues its systematic and unfair ways of keeping citizens of India and China from immigrating to US, and Canada continues its policy of courting immigrants, you'll see a culture of entrepreneurship growing in Canada too.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#118

Post by sqeaky »

linkregister wrote: post #52
acchow wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which Canadian tech company makes money hand-over-fist like Google, Facebook and Apple? The motivation to pay more for talent is to make more money... but Canadian tech companies 1) Do not make all that much money (with exception of Shopify) and 2) Don't believe that they will eventually make all that much money after hiring more.

I don't think this holds water since Amazon engineers in Vancouver, five hours north of Seattle, experience a 30% pay differential from their U.S. counterparts. The simple fact is that quality Canadian engineers will accept jobs for lower pay. I expect that over time, the software engineering market will demand higher pay. I hope OP does start that company in Waterloo to kickstart the whole process.

Doesn't Amazon try to screw everyone pretty much the time? Don't they just do whatever they can get away with?

I think pay statistics from multiple companies would be mcuh stronger for your argument..

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#119

Post by inputcoffee »

ohhhwell wrote: post #59
BrainInAJar wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian tech worker in SF... Nope. I tripled my salary coming down here even in just nominal terms (ie, before you factor in the exchange rate that eats 25% of your salary.) I hate SF/SiValley. I would love nothing more than to go home, but I'm not about to take a paycut that's measured in multiples of the median Canadian salary.

Unrelated tangent: It always baffle me how people view exchange rate as something that can "eat away your salary" and when you see people making statements like "it's so expensive in the UK, a pound is like 130% of a dollar". Makes me wonder if people who are only used to currencies that are roughly on the same scale view currencies in a different way than people who are used to 10x / 100x differences in currencies.…

I always use the example of Japan. $1 = 109 Yen, so do people think Japan costs 1/100th of what the US does?

Japan is a good example because people have an idea that it is a rich, expensive country.

Re: Canada's Tech Firms Capitalize On Immigration Anxiety

#120

Post by jimmyk »

uw_rob wrote: post #103
Karunamon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot more negatives with allowing unchecked open borders than putting standards in place. Most of the negatives boil down to people not being able to live in whatever arbitrary place they want. I don't think personal preference should carry a whole lot of weight in the context of setting policy on who gets to cross your borders. Certainly not near as much weight as the load on local welfare systems, personal h…

> Certainly not near as much weight as the load on local welfare systems, personal history, culture fit, and so forth. Why do you think this? I personally believe the opposite and think world wide semi-open borders would be for the best. (By semi-open I mean that you still need to pass background checks etc). You could also disqualify people from accepting welfare if they have recently moved into the county.

>would be for the best

The best for who? Do the people who live in countries with valuable infrastructure and institutions benefit from having to share them with immigrants that will be net-consumers of those services? (Note: I'm not saying all immigrants are net-consumers, I'm specifically asking about the subset of immigrants that are net-consumers.)

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