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3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

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Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#61

Post by schoen »

schoen wrote: post #2

Some non-dairy milks are labeled "not a substitute for infant formula". This is important because infants fed them in place of formula or breast milk have suffered severe malnutrition and even died. Babies' and small children's nutritional requirements are different from adults'. This study is looking at "children aged two to six" (ages at which formula or breast milk would no longer be necessary to sustain life), an…

Just to be clearer on the B₁₂ point, it is possible to get B₁₂ from vegan sources, but not readily from vegetables or other plants. Vegan B₁₂ comes from cultured micro-organisms, and vegans who don't supplement it will generally be deficient, as I was.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#62

Post by schoen »

Swizec wrote: post #12
schoen wrote: post #2

Some non-dairy milks are labeled "not a substitute for infant formula". This is important because infants fed them in place of formula or breast milk have suffered severe malnutrition and even died. Babies' and small children's nutritional requirements are different from adults'. This study is looking at "children aged two to six" (ages at which formula or breast milk would no longer be necessary to sustain life), an…

> while apparently for particular purposes non-dairy milks are starting out at a disadvantage even if they have some health benefits in other ways It's almost like alternative milks have around 30 calories per cup and real milk has 160 calories. That's a huge difference because you're likely to give your child "a glass of milk", not ask them to drink 5 glasses because the alt milk has basically no nutritional value.…

It varies quite a bit: Silk Unsweetened Almondmilk is 30 kcal/cup, while their Unsweetened Soymilk is 80 kcal/cup (still less than dairy milk, but by a factor of 2 instead of over 5). As maxerickson pointed out, sweetened ones also have more calories, but that's not necessarily a great nutritional improvement (e.g., Silk Chocolate Soymilk is 120 kcal/cup, with a whole bunch of refined sugar in there).

I think you can choose a nutrition profile quite a bit closer to dairy milk in many respects if you specifically want to, but it's going to depend on how your particular product was processed, sweetened, and fortified.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#64

Post by hepta »

wickawic wrote: post #41
emmelaich wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there are very good arguments for veganism but raw health isn't typically one of them. I'd say reducing cruelty to animals is the best one. But almond or soy instead of cow's milk? That's nuts. [hah pun not intended]

What do you mean by that? I would consider the treatment of dairy cows to be at least comparable to raising cows to kill them.

I imagine there is a way to raise a cow for beef that I find ethical. I don't know if you can do so for dairy cows. As far as I know, the cow has to have young to lactate, meaning it must be impregnated frequently. Am I wrong?

This is in constrast with chicken eggs, which I believe can be ethically produced (even though they aren't in the large majority of the industry).

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#65

Post by maxerickson »

schoen wrote: post #60
maxerickson wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if they're giving it to infants instead of breastfeeding or formula, it's borderline neglect. Nothing borderline about it. Babies still die of malnutrition in developed countries, when it happens it is often from vegan diets. I don't think that various vegetable derived products having "milk" in their names is the biggest part of the problem though.

I don't think it's reasonable to say "often". It seems like known cases were heavily covered in the press and involved criminal prosecutions. From what I can see, it seems to have been running around one death per year in developed countries. I agree that it's clearly a life-threatening risk to give babies vegetable milk as a substitute for breastfeeding or formula.

I said when it happens it is often from.

The number of deaths from malnutrition in developed countries is also very low. The cases that don't have an underlying biological cause are going to come down to parental behavior and beliefs.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#66

Post by rocky1138 »

irixusr wrote: post #46
rocky1138 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for this?

on what? The production quotas are my only factual claim. But here's wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_farming_in_Canada (The national post had a great series of articles about it. The Canadian newspaper sided with Trump against Canada's diary industry.) Btw, Milk costs double in Canada than in the states. Tastes better though (well sour cream and yoghurt do. I hate milk). On the other hand cheese is much be…

Yes, I meant the dairy farming. I'm just curious about it, not questioning you personally :) I had never heard about it before.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#67

Post by DanBC »

Xoros wrote: post #59
wickawic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by that? I would consider the treatment of dairy cows to be at least comparable to raising cows to kill them.

There is a farm near where I lived some times ago, in France south west, where the cows are choosing when they want to be milked (assuming it's the good word for it). The farmers owned 2 or 3 machines where the cow goes when it wants to give milk, and get out whenever it feels about it. There's a video on their website where you can see it http://www.lafermeduramier.fr The cows can go outside whenever they want and s…

You've missed out the bit where cows only produce milk for their young to drink, and so you need to keep breeding these milk cows.

You get a bunch of calves. Half of those are female, and go to replace the older dairy herd, which are killed. The other half are male, and there's no use for male dairy calves, and so they're all killed while quite young.

The selective breeding of dairy cattle has caused some genetic problems with modern cows.

All of this applies to the free range end of dairy farming.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#68

Post by irixusr »

rocky1138 wrote: post #66
irixusr wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

on what? The production quotas are my only factual claim. But here's wiki https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_farming_in_Canada (The national post had a great series of articles about it. The Canadian newspaper sided with Trump against Canada's diary industry.) Btw, Milk costs double in Canada than in the states. Tastes better though (well sour cream and yoghurt do. I hate milk). On the other hand cheese is much be…

Yes, I meant the dairy farming. I'm just curious about it, not questioning you personally :) I had never heard about it before.

Sorry, I read it like an aggressive "citation needed"

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#69

Post by schoen »

maxerickson wrote: post #65
schoen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's reasonable to say "often". It seems like known cases were heavily covered in the press and involved criminal prosecutions. From what I can see, it seems to have been running around one death per year in developed countries. I agree that it's clearly a life-threatening risk to give babies vegetable milk as a substitute for breastfeeding or formula.

I said when it happens it is often from . The number of deaths from malnutrition in developed countries is also very low. The cases that don't have an underlying biological cause are going to come down to parental behavior and beliefs.

I almost want to say that this is so rare as not to constitute a pattern, but on reflection I think you're right.

Re: 3-year-olds consuming alternative milks were 1.5 cm shorter on average

#70

Post by WalterSear »

Xoros wrote: post #59
wickawic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by that? I would consider the treatment of dairy cows to be at least comparable to raising cows to kill them.

There is a farm near where I lived some times ago, in France south west, where the cows are choosing when they want to be milked (assuming it's the good word for it). The farmers owned 2 or 3 machines where the cow goes when it wants to give milk, and get out whenever it feels about it. There's a video on their website where you can see it http://www.lafermeduramier.fr The cows can go outside whenever they want and s…

You've missed out what they did to all the male calves. And what they do to the cows after the 6 years or so (of a natural life of ~25).
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