“Let her speak please” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Let her speak please”

#401

Post by worldsayshi » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

ideonexus wrote: post #106

If you see this kind of behavior in the workplace, I highly recommend the technique of "echoing" as a means of overcoming it. In meetings I've seen it happen many times where an introvert makes a brilliant point, which gets completely lost when some manager who likes to hear themselves talk follows them. When this happens, I find it incredibly powerful to raise my hand and say, "I'd like to bring us back to [introver…

Nice an actual constructive suggestion!

> a workplace that is encouraging and respectful of women [...] is a workplace respectful of introverts as well.

And this is a good point as well.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#402

Post by komali2 » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:25 PM UTC

unicornporn wrote: post #363

Facebook posts are more or less unreadable to me without a Facebook login. This is what it looks like to me: https://i.imgur.com/ZQNexgi.png Does anybody else outside Facebook space find it annoying?

Yup, and not because I don't have a Facebook, only because I'm not logged in on my work machine.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#403

Post by tclancy » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

ethbro wrote: post #248

roberto wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't find the study, but men interrupt women much more than they interrupt men. Also, women interrupt other women more than they interrupt men as well.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/07/23/study_m... Men are 3x as likely to interrupt women. Women will interrupt women, but rarely men. Informal study, but decent sample size.

It's funny that you linked to that as I was about to dig up a more recent episode, http://www.slate.com/articles/podcasts/lexicon_valley/2017/0.... Which is in no way to diminish the fact men talk over women but to point out the idea of different conversational styles and how they can each frustrate the other.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#404

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

and0 wrote: post #319

DanBC wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> virtue signal Your use of this vapid phrase is itself a form of virtue signalling.

Someone who unironically uses "virtue signalling" very conveniently signals that they're not worth listening to. It's kinda nice, actually.

I disagree, it's a very apt description of an increasingly common phenomena online. When one's need to signal group membership outweighs their personal feelings regarding the issue at hand, that's virtue signalling. With the balkanization of online communities to being hyper-focused, and actively exclusionary of those with slightly different beliefs, virtue signalling becomes an important component of becoming and staying a member in good standing. Online political forums are stark examples of this.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#405

Post by luord » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:26 PM UTC

novia wrote: post #157

dekhn wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was really valuable to surface the feelings of the person who was the target of this discussion. It changes the perspective of the incident.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

> If you allow yourself to enjoy the beautiful things that really matter, if you don’t let social or peer pressure dissuade you from pursuing a field which appeals to you, then no pettiness or childishness or boorishness that you encounter can harm you so much.

I like this and also like how it's phrased.

Yes, sexism, racism and other forms of bigotry are real; the way they'll truly be beat is if more and more ostracized people think like this and push through the slights, ultimately normalizing their being among the people that, formerly, ostracized them.

Outrage on behalf of others will only take us so far, although the good intention is surely commendable.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#406

Post by Pxtl » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

token_throwaway wrote: post #350

Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who's ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him. Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I'm the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I'm assertive in general, I make sure I'm heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I'm talking in a m…

Thank you. As the "loud guy" around the office I have to keep this habit in check myself. I'd hate to think that, if I was drowning out the women, that people thought it was because I was personally discounting them as women.

Obviously sexism of outcome can be just as important to combat as sexism of intent, so of course I have to break the habit talking over people with my loud and opinionated speech.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#407

Post by polotics » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

_lex wrote: post #180

novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

This^10000!

...https://scholars.opb.msu.edu/en/publications/does-stereotype...

The most interesting result is that lowered performance in adverse conditions seems to stem from the induced cognitive load of wanting to avoid confirming negative stereotypes...

So internally roleplaying a WASP male really does work.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#408

Post by okreallywtf » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:29 PM UTC

weberc2 wrote: post #370

okreallywtf wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TLDR Even if its not a purely sexist situation if women make up a significant percentage of the victims of this behavior I think it is OK to consider it in the context of women. Rape isn't entirely male on female, both male on male and female on male and female on female also occur but male on female rape is the most prevalent and therefore gets an appropriate proportional amount of attention. It doesn't mean thats t…

According to the national crime victimization survey, males account for more than 1/3 of reported rape victims, and males are known to underreport compared to females. It could easily be 50/50.

I think females are also known to under-report as well but its hard to know who under reports more.

I meant it more as an analogy than anything else. I've seen the "but what about X" argument being used a lot lately where X and Y are the same issue that affect different groups and both are deserving of attention but one is more (maybe much more) prevalent than the other. As a means to derail a discussion of Y someone says "but what about X?" so a discussion becomes so broad and general as to be totally meaningless.

In this situation, rather than being able to focus on an issue that many women face, you end up in a discussion about all of humanity and genders and personalities that will likely never address any issue at all. I have room in my head to be concerned with issues that affect different people and talking about them in the context of one group does not imply other groups do not matter but some people act as it does.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#409

Post by anjc » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

masondixon wrote: post #400

anjc wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exaggeration! > "Oh my god. what you said was the most important thing that was said all day. Thank you. Thank you." > most important thing that was said > most important

You watch the video?

I didn't watch the full discussion but I think it's fair to say that "let her speak please" was not the most important thing said that day.

How big headed is this person that she thinks her input was more important than that of the person she's claiming to uplift.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#410

Post by sitoseb » Wed, Jun 07, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

Houshalter wrote: post #315

I have a theory that women are less likely to be, I guess the word would be "assertive", than men. That is a stereotype, but sometimes there's truth in stereotypes. I mean I recall studies that women are less likely to ask for raises or are worse at haggling. So if a person is speaking over you and rambling on, perhaps a man is more likely to speak up or butt in at the first opportunity. The quote in the top comment…

Of course women are less, I'd even say "aggressive". That explains so many other examples like IT interviews (and why men are doing better): https://blog.interviewing.io/we-built-voice-modulation-to-ma...

We're different and both genders find themselves better in different roles. That's why in most egalitarian countries that difference in occupations is the biggest.