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Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

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Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#361

Post by sizzzzlerz »

cynicalbastard wrote: post #204
sizzzzlerz wrote: post #199

It would be well to remember the old adage that there are two kinds of rock climbers: those that have fallen and those that will fall. As spectacular a feat as this was, even for someone as skilled as Honnold, he does this often enough, in the end, it will kill him.

i used to think that, but now i'm not so sure. his free climbs are basically choreographed down to the inch, well ahead of time. that is a completely different thing than just going up because he's in a good mood and thinks he can do it.

That is like saying you can flip 50 coins and have them come up heads every time because your flips were choreographed. Every single move he makes, every fingerhold, every foot placement, everything, must be perfect every time. The rock can't crumble unexpectedly,the sun can't momentarily blind him, hell, a butterfly in the Peruvian Andes can't flap its wings just so. There must be thousands of such points in his climbs, any one of which could kill him. He does it often enough, someday, they will.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#362

Post by sriku »

kbenson wrote: post #306
patejam wrote: post #130

By far the best article I've seen to supplement this: https://www.outsideonline.com/2190306/why-alex-honnolds-free... As a climber, there are very few people that I trust to have a more useful opinion on all this than Tommy Caldwell, a close friend and long time climbing partner of Honnold. It's so out there for most people that most jump to conclusions without proper knowledge of the subject. Caldwell is in an inter…

It’s all too easy for headlines about climbing to lean on clichés about the climbers themselves—that these people are daredevils, thrill seekers, adrenaline junkies. But to most climbers, nothing is quicker to trigger the gag reflex. Climbing is an intimate relationship with our world’s most dramatic landscapes, not a self-boasting fight against them. I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of Alex’s mind, but…

To "live" in this sense is, perhaps, to "flow" in the Mihaly sense. You can't flow if you're dead, but the flow you seek is not a panicked fleeing from death.

Not too different from deciding to run a startup - small probability of success, certainty of exhaustion, possible alienation from family, etc. SV provides ropes for when you fail. Doesn't happen everywhere.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#363

Post by betenoire »

Obi_Juan_Kenobi wrote: post #353
betenoire wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's 50% placebo, 50% soaks up the sweat so you don't feel like you are pulling on a sheet of glass. My ratios may be wrong, adjust to taste.

There's a mental aspect (chalk = business time) but it's not a placebo. Have someone deadlift with a particular grip with and without chalk, and they'll lift more with the chalk, no question. It helps grip.

Can anything literally be only part placebo? obviously hyperbole, but anyone who has stuck their hand in a chalk bag knows how comforting it is in spite of it being the 7th time on that same rest hold.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#364

Post by dragonsky67 »

kbenson wrote: post #331
cjonas wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. Free-soloing (climbing without ropes) is the purest form of climbing. Not stopping to place protection, not having to bring up your partner, not having to haul a bag... It's just you on the wall. It takes most climber mul…

> If you really want to understand just how impressive this was: I have no doubt it's impressive. I'm impressed. I'm not trying to diminish that in any way. > you could say the same thing about top-roping vs lead climbing (placing protection from the ground up). Yes, top-roping is much safer, but the experience & sense of achievement is just not the same. My question is why is the sense of achievement not the same. I…

I've only done a very small amount of climbing many years ago, however I have done a fair bit of overnight hiking.

I would suggest that the difference between protected and free climbing would be the same as the difference between hiking with a full backpack and hiking with a small day pack with only some food/water and maybe a warm pullover. Your plans are the same, to travel somewhere, your methods and the level of encumbrance is very different. Your enjoyment would also be different, with significantly less sweat and exhaustion but depending upon your environment maybe less enjoyable sleep and more restricted food. In my subtropical environment I know which I prefer, as long as it does not rain.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#365

Post by hervature »

dota_fanatic wrote: post #231
cbtacy wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as a former sponsored, professional climber who happens to have been one of the first Americans to solo 5.13... sorry but I'm still alive and kicking. Listen... soloing is obviously very dangerous. Nobody who is out there soloing as a pastime is unaware of this. But comparing soloing to trying to jump gorges on rocket slides isn't doing justice to a complicated and nuanced subject. Soloing is a personal deci…

What would you estimate his chance of death was in doing this climb? 1%? 5%? Most people would call someone who takes on that kind of deadly risk for nothing more than accomplishment and legacy, ie by choice, a daredevil. If free soloing is not usually thrilling, or adrenaline inducing, but something you approach with care, methods, and preparation... what's the point of the induced-risk? Why not take on a similar ch…

I think that this is probably the biggest misconception about Alex. Pad your estimates of death with a couple of 0's, that is, 0.01% (even less) chance of death. From this article others have posted https://www.outsideonline.com/2190306/why-alex-honnolds-free...:

> “It would be so easy for you—you know you wont fall on 5.12,”

In essence, he is so good at climbing, this is like going up a really long ladder for the average human. Sure, rungs on the ladder could break, but even I could climb a ladder 3000ft tall with enough endurance training and not fall. At least, most likely not fall.

To answer your question about the thrill, in multiple interviews, he says that free soloing is the "ultimate test". Akin to closed book and no calculators. Can you really claim that you've mastered a subject if you were allowed to use aids? This is the way he views free soloing.

When you view it like this and reduce the chances of dying to be less than driving on the freeway, I think it is less daredevil behaviour and more the ultimate passion for his craft.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#366

Post by Bakary »

kbenson wrote: post #336
jjaredsimpson wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to embrace the ambiguity in natural languages. Life and death can be simply considered opposites. In this mode of thinking any risky behavior is trading in death at the peril of life. However you can also imagine a justification along these lines: There are certain things we humans can do which give us access to unique highly desirable mental states. Some of these are familiar things like falling in love or…

> There are certain things we humans can do which give us access to unique highly desirable mental states. Sure. If cheating death is the path to that state for some people, that's understandable , and not really something new. I'm not judging him, this isn't some roundabout way to say people shouldn't free-solo. I'm literally trying to figure out if there's something else to it I'm missing, because the way it's stat…

It's possible he has a much different view of the world than you or I do. I once met a person who did similarly risky things but from his perspective living a normal life seemed like a nightmarish slow burn death. He was completely fine with the most brazen stunts but the idea of settling down somewhere or having a 9-to-5 desk job gave him cold sweats and in his own words "the feeling as if a hand were wildly grasping at my throat" (sounds better in the original language). No "quiet desperation" for him I guess.

Although I think the simple thrill of it has to factor in at least a little bit, the climber is perhaps mainly motivated by the idea that not living like this is actually a form of death in itself or a very risky behavior (in the sense of wasting your life). It's similar to the ancient idea that a life of servitude is not a life at all. I can't say I necessarily agree but it's not such an outlandish concept either.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#367

Post by baddox »

hanley wrote: post #102
jabl wrote: post #94

A couple of years ago it was in the news that a couple a blokes (Caldwell & Jorgeson) had freeclimbed El Capitan. So for those of us who know next to nothing about rock climbing, what's the difference here? Apparently Caldwell & Jorgeson were using ropes for safety although not for the climbing per se (hence why it was freeclimbing?) So this guy does it all alone, without any safety ropes, and in frickin 4 hours? Waa…

You are correct about the difference between freeclimbing and free soloing. Honnold had nothing to save him if he fell. Caldwell and Jorgeson had a rope and gear and a belayer to catch them if they fell, but they climbed their whole route without pulling on gear to help them climb. They climbed different routes. The Dawn Wall route had not previously been free climbed, it had only been aid climbed before (meaning cli…

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Dawn Wall distinction was also that they climbed each pitch in order, and each pitch consecutively without a fall. They fell many times, and just had to start from the bottom of the pitch each time they did. I remember hearing slight controversy about them being able to decide where the pitches start and end, effectively choosing the respawn points conveniently. The other distinction was that they couldn't leave the wall before they finished all pitches.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#368

Post by baddox »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #84
Lordarminius wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lauded, examined, written about - I agree. Taught - Not so sure. Alex Honnold is an extreme outlier. We mortals may marvel but Im not sure his feat can be replicated so easily. I may be wrong. The guy is simply rad. I couldn't stop laughing at this: A lighter moment came later, Honnold said, when he passed some climbers who had spent the night on a ledge. He did his best not to wake them. "I woke up one guy and he so…

I was reading a another article about this ascent yesterday and they brought up a great point. Prior to Roger Bannister running the 1st sub 4 minute mile it was thought to be impossible and beyond a humans capabilities. Once that barrier fell many more quickly pushed through it. There is something to someone moving the bar of what is possible. As a species we are incredible in our abilities and resolve to continually…

In the case of the 4 minute mile, I assume lots of runners were training and were reasonably close, and of course someone has to be the first. I don't know if it can be shown that the first 4 minute mile inspired a bunch of other people to follow suit so quickly.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#369

Post by js2 »

kbenson wrote: post #306
patejam wrote: post #130

By far the best article I've seen to supplement this: https://www.outsideonline.com/2190306/why-alex-honnolds-free... As a climber, there are very few people that I trust to have a more useful opinion on all this than Tommy Caldwell, a close friend and long time climbing partner of Honnold. It's so out there for most people that most jump to conclusions without proper knowledge of the subject. Caldwell is in an inter…

It’s all too easy for headlines about climbing to lean on clichés about the climbers themselves—that these people are daredevils, thrill seekers, adrenaline junkies. But to most climbers, nothing is quicker to trigger the gag reflex. Climbing is an intimate relationship with our world’s most dramatic landscapes, not a self-boasting fight against them. I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of Alex’s mind, but…

The closest analog I can think of is Phillipe Petit's tightrope walk across the twin towers. Petit has similarly said that:

“I am not a death-wish person,” he said to me. “I want to live very old. It is true that death is part of the frame—that it frames such activities as bullfighting and tightrope walking. My world is a dangerous world, sure, but I am very safe in knowing my limits. I am not playing with words when I say I don’t take risks. The danger becomes so narrow that it is a novel companion with whom you travel. It is not an enemy.”

I know this isn't an answer, but if you've never seen the documentary about Petit, "Man on Wire", perhaps it would help to understand the mindset.

Re: Alex Honnold Scales El Capitan Without Ropes, and the Climbing World Reels

#370

Post by Bakary »

snowwrestler wrote: post #327
kbenson wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all too easy for headlines about climbing to lean on clichés about the climbers themselves—that these people are daredevils, thrill seekers, adrenaline junkies. But to most climbers, nothing is quicker to trigger the gag reflex. Climbing is an intimate relationship with our world’s most dramatic landscapes, not a self-boasting fight against them. I don’t claim to understand the inner workings of Alex’s mind, but…

Everyone lives their life in the face of impending death. Yet we usually judge the quality of our lives by what we accomplish, not the mere postponement of the inevitable. Climbers climb for the enjoyment of the experience, and to get to the top--not just to show that they can avoid falling. Alex is a rare elite climber, so he reaches for rare elite experiences and accomplishments.

Looks like he's not the dead-at-25-buried-at-75 type!
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