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Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#141

Post by kudu »

std_throwaway wrote: post #97
eropple wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were allowed to speak. They did speak. "Freedom of speech" applies only and strictly to governments, not to a private institution. And that's because the only way "freedom of speech" matters is if others are free to react to you as they please; Harvard might not like you and might tell you to get the hell out of their (and my, as it happens) neighborhood. If you don't like that, then you have options. One, don't…

Cutting down to the point. * What these students did or didn't do does not matter in this case. * Harvard can withdraw the acceptance for anyone at any time for any reason. We don't need to argue about privacy or free speech here. All we can argue about as a first point is if Harvard should have the ability to withdraw their acceptance or not.

Not true that Harvard can withdraw the acceptance at any time for any reason. There is a specific set of circumstances in which it can be withdrawn (in this case, where the person's integrity/moral character is in doubt); otherwise, the unconditional offer of admission could be considered a legally binding contract between the university and the student.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#142

Post by wvenable »

nxsynonym wrote: post #48
Frondo wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am perfectly fine with private organizations banning whoever they like for posting racist shit. Racist shit is "wrong speech". If I have friends who start uttering racist shit, and I can't talk them out of it, they are no longer my friends. (This has happened precisely once, no regrets. Thanks, Fox News, for poisoning an old man's mind.) Posting racist memes is wrong, saying racist things is wrong, thinking racist…

because free speech is universal. You can't cherry pick what topics/views/opinions are protected based on your world view.

Free speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. This seems to have gotten lost on the concept.

The government can't arrest you but people can shun you.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#143

Post by Houshalter »

vinceguidry wrote: post #111

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

I don't see anyone in the comments that genuinely believe what Harvard did was illegal. They have a legal right to do whatever they want (so long as they don't receive any taxpayer money whatsoever, which I'm not sure is true.) But we have a legal right to criticize them for it and be angry at them.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#144

Post by TheGirondin »

vinceguidry wrote: post #111

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

So then you support removing all government funding from the college, yes?

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#145

Post by TomatoTomato »

calciphus wrote: post #70
nxsynonym wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because free speech is universal. You can't cherry pick what topics/views/opinions are protected based on your world view.

Free speech means the government won't arrest you for it. It does not mean private institutions and friend groups must endure it. Free speech does not mean speech without consequences. Relevant xkcd, as always! https://xkcd.com/1357/

There's a big difference between the right to free speech and the principle of free speech. Most especially when it comes to academia.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#146

Post by objclxt »

cirgue wrote: post #100
metaphorm wrote: post #22

I'm so conflicted right now. On the one hand, yeah, that shit is offensive and I'm not too keen on elevating a person who makes jokes about sexual assault or violence against minorities. On the other hand I'm terrified at the creeping surveillance society that has institutions examining all of our utterances for "wrong speech", which is much too close for comfort to "wrong think", which is much too close for comfort…

Could you be denied admittance to Harvard because you showed up on campus at some kind of freshman event and started telling extremely offensive jokes in front of the whole gathering? How is a Facebook group full of people you don't know any different?

> Could you be denied admittance to Harvard because you showed up on campus at some kind of freshman event and started telling extremely offensive jokes in front of the whole gathering?

Probably depends how offensive you were. But yeah, sure you could. I am absolutely positive there are some prospective freshmen at Harvard who have had their admission rescinded based on their behavior during the pre-frosh weekend. Such incidents tend to be less publicized because they involve a single student, and there's normally an embarrassment factor involved.

Once you are on campus and admitted it would be more difficult...it would depend on the context. Certainly people have been kicked out (or rather, "asked to leave") based on sharing offensive material and memes, but in the cases I know of it was because that material was targeting specific individuals / people.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#147

Post by vinceguidry »

Houshalter wrote: post #143
vinceguidry wrote: post #111

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

I don't see anyone in the comments that genuinely believe what Harvard did was illegal. They have a legal right to do whatever they want (so long as they don't receive any taxpayer money whatsoever, which I'm not sure is true.) But we have a legal right to criticize them for it and be angry at them.

No, but they are saying that it's a free speech issue. It is a free speech issue, but not in the way they are saying. Your anger is misplaced if it's directed at Harvard.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#148

Post by pvnick »

vinceguidry wrote: post #111

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

Folks always make this argument which this kind of thing comes up. Just because you as a private entity can limit free speech, doesn't mean you should. Censorship is generally a bad idea, and I as a private entity can be upset at Harvard for doing it.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#149

Post by DanBC »

Coding_Cat wrote: post #7
Skywing wrote: post #2

I also believe that Riot Games would fire employees for excessive offensive in-game chat.

Noteworthy difference being that, I believe, Riot employees are identified as such and their communication is public (in the eyes of Riot) not private. In this case I think it might very well be a case of "The Aristocrats" humor like they mentioned in the article (CAH). I disagree with withdrawing the invitation based upon private communication here, but if it was publically visible and said "hey we're Harvard Studen…

It wasn't just a private group.

> The founders of the messaging group demanded that students post provocative memes in the main group chat to gain admittance to the smaller group.

Re: Harvard withdraws 10 acceptances for ‘offensive’ memes in private group chat

#150

Post by geebee »

vinceguidry wrote: post #111

People worried about free speech rights should realize that Harvard is a private university. If I held a party at my house and didn't want to invite you because you called my dog a 'mutt', you'd get laughed out of court if you tried to sue me over it. People should be allowed to organize under whatever principles they want to organize under. Disallowing Harvard to use whatever criteria they want to use to admit stude…

I mentioned this in a comment above - Harvard is a private university that is blessed by favored government status. The exemption on endowment growth is worth more per undergraduate than public colleges receive from the state (apologize for no cite, I read that it is worth 3x more per undergrad than what Berkeley gets per undergrad from the state). Harvard also gets a massive amount of its funding from government research grants, and it does divert a substantial amount of it to general operating funds.

Harvard is pretty far from a purely private organization. I understand we live in a complicated world, and almost nothing is "purely" private, but there are still degrees of public and private, it exists on a continuum. Harvard, as far as "private" institutions go, is heavily supported by government money and favored status. It's nothing close to your analogy of a privately owned house.

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