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Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#71

Post by nikofeyn »

Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with.

in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where visual and text representations take over on what they're best at, yielding to the other when it makes sense. the way people work on mathematics is a great example of this. drawings, diagrams, graphs, shapes, etc. are used to convey structural information where text and symbols are used to convey more detailed, descriptive information.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#73

Post by zaphar »

kilon wrote: post #22

Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent. There are 3 areas that I am aware of that VPLs have appeared a) modular audio synthesis b) 3d graphics c) game programming (a) has been the first with origins back to 1995 , there are like a ton of programming apis for building modular synthesizers , the…

You're cherrypicking examples and ignoring counter examples. Yes VPL's in specific niche areas have been useful and largely beaten there competitors. But I know of no general purpose VPL that had succeeded in beating a text only competitor. Text is superior for general purpose languages because it sits in the sweet spot for information density vs ease of use.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#75

Post by pavlov »

ChristianGeek wrote: post #47
jstewartmobile wrote: post #28

I guess it depends on what one considers to be programming. For certain DSLs (audio, control systems, UIs), it seems to be doing OK. For general-purpose work, I think they will always be less desirable than text. Even after thousands of years, words are still our most powerful tool for recording and sharing new ideas. Alan Kay's mistake is that a lot of his original work was with Papert on educating children. For ear…

It's like the difference between a kid's picture book and an adult novel.

I feel this comment significantly devalues graphic novels. It's a separate art from the novel, but not an inferior one. Pictures have value for adults too.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#76

Post by eriknstr »

kilon wrote: post #22

Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent. There are 3 areas that I am aware of that VPLs have appeared a) modular audio synthesis b) 3d graphics c) game programming (a) has been the first with origins back to 1995 , there are like a ton of programming apis for building modular synthesizers , the…

Poor form of the people who downvoted parent.

I don't agree with parent but they are contributing to the conversation.

If you disagree why don't you provide some counter-points instead.

Here, let me start.

> Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent.

That's an unsubstantiated claim. Point to some sources please.

> There are 3 areas that I am aware of that VPLs have appeared a) modular audio synthesis b) 3d graphics c) game programming

These are not the only ones [1], and VPL first appeared earlier than 1995. For example, the first version of LabView was released in 1986 [2] and certainly LabView was not the first one either.

> 3d is where TPLs go to die and are used strictly for generating the software alone and thats about it.

Even if this is true in the case of VFX (which I don't know that it is but I don't know that it's not either), it certainly is not true in video game development, which is very much an area of 3d graphics.

> computer games there VPLs are something new but Unreal has definitely changed that with Blueprints

Blueprints is awesome but you could not TODAY make an arbitrary game implemented using ONLY blueprints and have the amount of control and freedom you have if you use Unreal or another game engine with C++ or another TPL. Thus falls your initial claim, which (quoted above also) was

> Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent.

And I bet that others can point to a wide range of areas where an existing VPL will come up short.

Some people love LabView. I certainly don't. Some prefer it and for them it's a thousand times better than using a TPL but for me 99% of the time I would go with a TPL over LabView.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LabVIEW

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#77

Post by zepolen »

nikofeyn wrote: post #71
Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

then why does everyone sketch a picture when trying to convey an idea? text is obviously useful but so is visual information. the complete dismissal of visual programming by text-based programmers is often infuriating. visual programming can provide an immediate indication of structure and dataflow, something that text-based languages struggle with. in my mind, the best case scenario is some sort of hybrid, where vis…

They are adding words in the form of thoughts or speech to describe the drawing.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#78

Post by lisper »

> The type of visual programming I'm thinking about here is a WYSIWYG drag and drop interface for building UIs.

The main challenge in this particular domain is describing what is supposed to happen to the layout when the size of the window changes, or if there are dependencies among visual elements (e.g. some element only appears when a check box is checked). When laying things out visually you can only ever design one particular instance of a layout. If all your elements are static, this works just fine. But if the layout is in any way dynamic (with window resizing being the most common case) you now have to either describe what you want to have happen when things change, or have the system guess. And there are a lot of options: scaling, cropping, letterboxing, overflowing, "smart" reflow... The possibilities are endless, so describing all of that complexity in general requires a full programming language. This is one the reasons that even CSS can be very frustrating, and people often resort to Javascript to get their UI to do the Right Thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#79

Post by icebraining »

kilon wrote: post #22

Every time a VPL (Visual Programming Language) has gone against a TPL (text programming language) , VPL not only has come out a winner it has massacred its opponent. There are 3 areas that I am aware of that VPLs have appeared a) modular audio synthesis b) 3d graphics c) game programming (a) has been the first with origins back to 1995 , there are like a ton of programming apis for building modular synthesizers , the…

If Blueprints have really become the default in Unreal, why are they so barely talked about? Searching for "unreal blueprints" on Google returns less than two full pages. Do you work in the industry?

Re: Ask HN: Why does visual programming suck?

#80

Post by badminton1 »

Changu wrote: post #52

I think the reason is that text is already a highly optimized visual way to represent information. It started with cave paintings and evolved to what it is now. "Please go to the supermarket and get two bottles of beer. If you see Joe, tell him we are having a party in my house at 6 tomorrow." It took me a few seconds to write that. Imagine I had to paint it.

Well, it depends. If we had to describe the situation in very graphic detail, then images can be more succinct.
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