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India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

nytimes.com

91–100 of 160 posts

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#91
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

Treaties like this have a big signaling component, just like macroeconomics. Improvements are perfectly possible without them, but even a toothless treaty affects all kinds of decisions downstream. We also take into account that energy production is about large capital investments that aren't looking at tomorrow, but a decade or two ahead at the minimum. Building a new coal plant today isn't a bad idea because it'll…

A counterbalance here though is that the global trend is making coal a poor investment. People building power plants do it for the return - and they won't do it if they can get a better return elsewhere.

That's really the tipping point for solar - if it can provide a better return then coal plants. It's getting close, but the significant thing is that solar scales so much better then coal because you can build it anywhere - minimal environmental impact statements, no real supply lines other then grid access, minimal staffing and maintenance. If a straight up solar farm can provide a reliable return on investment over coal power, then no one is going to bother building coal plants any longer unless tax-breaks rain from the heavens (which they might).

And the kicker is very much that scalability aspect - solar doesn't even need to provide much of a better return then coal plants to beat them, it just needs to be deployable in such volume that the obvious investment strategy becomes "build solar".

And we're getting there - fast.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#92

Ha! Try telling this to the current Australian government... The current narrative is that India desperately needs coal and our coal is the cleanest, so we need to dig it up [1] and sell it to them to help fight climate change, because otherwise they're going to get 'dirtier' coal from somewhere else. If you disagree, then you believe that Indians don't deserve electricity. And this isn't a strawman, this is almost v…

India imports a huge amount of coal from Australia because of local restrictions on mining, by the way. Otherwise we have one of the largest coal reserves on the planet. Digging up coal to fight climate change is just silly, and I doubt that flies anywherre.

The normal industry name for lower quality coal is "brown coal" (the most common type is lignite, which actually has a brown colour), and higher quality coal is "black coal". For coal used for steel making / coking has to be purer so low sulphur black coal is the only option.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#93
post #22

Anyone know more about India's nuclear story? At one time they were focusing on thorium. I wonder what we could do to spur on a little more competition with China. http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and...

Nuclear power is dead. Stop beating it, it's not even a horse any more. Sure, it emits less radiation than coal, and the thorium/fast breeder/fusion/whatever revolution is just around the corner, and I also feel so manly and strong and competent arguing for it when everyone else has moved on ten years ago, and there's absolutely no risk if you do it right, unlike these Russians who were just too unorganised to follow procedures, oh, yeah, and those Japanese, who we always accused of being incompetent with technology.

No, nuclear power is simply too expensive. In less than a decade, even wind and solar will be cheaper.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#94

After watching this talk show with Alex Epstein I've realized the word 'green' is largely bs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-1ohbRDrE Green doesn't automatically mean better, and dirty does not mean coal and fossil fuels. It is how the technology is used. He argues alternative energy leads to deforestation, destruction of habitats, and deaths from vegetable oil which otherwise could be used to prevent some starva…

Alex Epstein --> Wikipedia, Career: 1. Ayn Rand Institute.

Yeah thanks I'll pass.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#95
post #33

One thing I learned on a trip to Kerala is that most people in the region actually burn their garbage - the government doesn't provide disposal service. While I'm sure the particulate and chemical emissions of this practice are awful, I'm curious about this carbon implications.

CO_2 emissions are the same if it goes up in big black smokes of clouds next to some school, or if it's burned in the best incinerator money can buy, or even if it's thrown in the ocean and slowly degraded by organic means.

The only thing that makes a difference is recycling.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#96
post #81
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

per capita is pretty good measure of efficiency but environmental impact is probably better measured by emissions per area of the country? am I wrong?

You are right we shouldn't be focusing on on per capita emission.

The problem with not doing per capita is that you valuing each person differently arbitrarily basis their nationality...

You can for example combine EU into one entity and say they pollute a lot. Or split china/india/US into 50 countries and say they don't contribute much individually.

In effect favouring being born lucky.. in any random sample of the world population you have 33% chance of being born in just 2 countries . Do these people get fair representatation in any international forum ? It is either 1 vote per country or powerfull ones have all of it.

Landmass also is not effective measure . You will end up with Australia, Canada and Russia driving the agenda

Pop density has more to do with ability to grow food and energy efficiency of food consumption - comparing pop density and talking about over population has to factor that in saying china and india are overcrowded is not a sensible argument(they are over populated but not to extent people think) .

We need fresh perspective on how we see the world , arbitrary national boundaries , Mercator projections and biased schooling makes our world view very distorted

All of the above applies to the US as well . State borders are arbitrary. People in Pop dense centers like california do not get even the 10th of the representatation as say Wyoming.

California could be 8th largest country in terms of economic output and has a pop larger most countries in the world yet people living there do not have a say proportional to their impact in domestic or international politic is that fair ?

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#97
post #11
post #7

India, "still a coal Goliath" is a better description. They burn a massive amount of coal compared to most countries. They've just scaled slightly back on a massive coal consumption plan they implemented in the last few years. Nice, but hardly worth any recognition in the shadow of the damage they have already done.

Indeed. India has a coal glut on their hands. India was opening one new coal planet every month at the end of 2015. Around the same time India's Arvin Subramanian coined the term “carbon imperialism" during Paris accord negotiations because India didn't like the terms. As expected, much more favorable terms were renegotiated to get India on board; India now gets to grow their CO2 emission as a function of GDP. A simp…

India consumes only 1/15 as much energy as the US (per capita). To insist that they should further reduce further is simply disingenuous: http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/EG.USE.ELEC.KH.PC?contex...

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#98
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please look at per capita emissions of India compared to other countries before making such statements. Wonder how Indians do a damage to the enviornment, by having the lowest per capita emissions on planet. FYI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

per capita is pretty good measure of efficiency but environmental impact is probably better measured by emissions per area of the country? am I wrong?

> am I wrong?

Yes. Area doesn't consume energy, people do. Otherwise Russia would be the most eco-friendly country in the world, and something like Luxembourg should be considered an abject failure of environmental policy.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#99

Ha! Try telling this to the current Australian government... The current narrative is that India desperately needs coal and our coal is the cleanest, so we need to dig it up [1] and sell it to them to help fight climate change, because otherwise they're going to get 'dirtier' coal from somewhere else. If you disagree, then you believe that Indians don't deserve electricity. And this isn't a strawman, this is almost v…

You're missing the other side of the story. Which is that the current Australian government has also been undermining the renewable energy sector for years forcing projects to be cancelled and talent to leave overseas.

I've never understood given how decent Australia through the CSIRO has been at commercialising innovation why we never invested more in the renewable energy sector.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#100
I know this is completely beyond the topic, and only relevant in regards to the website, but, as someone who has been convulsively clicking text while reading articles his whole life, this site design is absolute garbage. When i double click text I do not expect the site to interact. Double click in my world is known for highlighting. Not increasing font size. Sorry, end rant.
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