India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green • Hacker News Board

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#61

Post by Abishek_Muthian » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

I wonder why NYT conveniently chose to ignore the previous US administration's WTO complaint on India's local component requirements for solar panels and it's subsequent verdict against India.

India required US solar panel manufacturers to source cells from locally, which was challenged by US in WTO and subsequently awarded in it's favour. So it's not just India is moving forward with green energy in spite of 'unfair-share' in global climate policies but also moving against the hurdles imposed specifically targeting it's green energy movements.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#62

Post by e9 » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

abhishivsaxena wrote: post #9

hueving wrote: post #7

India, "still a coal Goliath" is a better description. They burn a massive amount of coal compared to most countries. They've just scaled slightly back on a massive coal consumption plan they implemented in the last few years. Nice, but hardly worth any recognition in the shadow of the damage they have already done.

Please look at per capita emissions of India compared to other countries before making such statements. Wonder how Indians do a damage to the enviornment, by having the lowest per capita emissions on planet. FYI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

per capita is pretty good measure of efficiency but environmental impact is probably better measured by emissions per area of the country? am I wrong?

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#63

Post by ntsplnkv2 » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 2:53 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #26

thevardanian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

> personal responsibility of the states huh? If the 4 million people of Oklahoma don't take "personal responsibility" for polluting the atmosphere we all pay the price not just them.

The less people the better.

If every other country follows the Paris accord, and many US states, it really won't matter as much what Oklahoma does.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#64

Post by kartickv » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 2:58 AM UTC

orasis wrote: post #53

danbolt wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the elegance and futurism of paying with mobile phones like that, but do the telephone companies operate in a similar manner to financial institutions there? For instance, if I deposit money, do I receive interest? What happens to my funds if the phone company goes bankrupt? Are there similar regulations to banks?

When was the last time you earned a noteworthy amount of interest on a bank deposit?

Not many in India would see things the way you do. Why lose interest if you can get it, particularly if you don't have more interest coming in from mutual funds or someplace else? If anything, the competition is on to see who'll pay more interest. One payments bank announced 7%: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/wealth/personal-finance-...

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#65

Post by duncan_bayne » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 2:58 AM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #60

duncan_bayne wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much better to keep them empoverished and undeveloped, right? /s This sort of argument is exactly why I see environmentalism as anti-human at its heart.

Most environmentalists want to bring a high standard of living to everybody in a sustainable way. Yes, there are some over on the "voluntary human extinction" end of the spectrum, but you shouldn't tar them all with that brush.

Certainly, that's true of most people who support green policies of various sorts.

But I'm not at all sure it's true of the majority of environmentalist organisations and parties.

I think there is as much of a disconnect between green voters and the desires of green politicians and lobbyists, as there is between the interests of Trump voters and Trump's interests.

It's fairly common to hear green orgs denouncing industrialisation, economic growth, free trade, etc. In New Zealand, the Green Party was in part founded by literal Communists, left adrift and unfunded after the fall of the USSR.

To summarise, I think that most people who think they are supporting what you said - a high standard of living in a sustainable manner - are actually supporting anti-capitalists.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#66

Post by duncan_bayne » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 3:03 AM UTC

e9 wrote: post #56

duncan_bayne wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much better to keep them empoverished and undeveloped, right? /s This sort of argument is exactly why I see environmentalism as anti-human at its heart.

I agree with you, but can you talk more about this? Is there an article or some other resource that talks more about this topic?

An illustrative starting point is the Golden Rice fiasco:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#67

Post by thevardanian » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #26

thevardanian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

> personal responsibility of the states huh? If the 4 million people of Oklahoma don't take "personal responsibility" for polluting the atmosphere we all pay the price not just them.

Well yes. That's exactly my point. They need to, and we need those people TO take "personal responsibility".

How the treaty will get Oklahoma to take personal responsibility is beyond me.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#68

Post by robattila128 » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 3:04 AM UTC

After watching this talk show with Alex Epstein I've realized the word 'green' is largely bs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zw-1ohbRDrE

Green doesn't automatically mean better, and dirty does not mean coal and fossil fuels. It is how the technology is used. He argues alternative energy leads to deforestation, destruction of habitats, and deaths from vegetable oil which otherwise could be used to prevent some starvation.If you accept these things then alternative energy becomes extremely selfish by putting the burden out of your cities.

It's a good interview I hope you guys check it out.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#69

Post by mikeash » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 3:06 AM UTC

duncan_bayne wrote: post #65

mikeash wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most environmentalists want to bring a high standard of living to everybody in a sustainable way. Yes, there are some over on the "voluntary human extinction" end of the spectrum, but you shouldn't tar them all with that brush.

Certainly, that's true of most people who support green policies of various sorts. But I'm not at all sure it's true of the majority of environmentalist organisations and parties. I think there is as much of a disconnect between green voters and the desires of green politicians and lobbyists, as there is between the interests of Trump voters and Trump's interests. It's fairly common to hear green orgs denouncing indu…

I guess it's just a question of how you label various groups? I wouldn't consider fringe Green Parties or similar organizations to be representative of environmentalism. If I should be using another term, I wouldn't object too much.

Re: India, Once a Coal Goliath, Is Fast Turning Green

#70

Post by thevardanian » Sat, Jun 03, 2017, 3:06 AM UTC

hibikir wrote: post #28

thevardanian wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't understand is why it's assumed that somehow the Paris Treaty is somehow enforced, or binding, or that it will even actually improve conditions more-so than independent initiative. I personally think that the USA can achieve its goal without the Paris Treaty through personal responsibility of the states, and independent initiatives through counties, and cities. That type of independent resolution is…

Treaties like this have a big signaling component, just like macroeconomics. Improvements are perfectly possible without them, but even a toothless treaty affects all kinds of decisions downstream. We also take into account that energy production is about large capital investments that aren't looking at tomorrow, but a decade or two ahead at the minimum. Building a new coal plant today isn't a bad idea because it'll…

If you don't have faith in states taking initiative then as a whole you can't have the USA change. That's just how our culture, and our governance works.

States NEED to take responsibility. If we are to change as a nation we need to stop looking at the globe and do a bit of introspection so that we can change internally. Otherwise if states are left out of the equation then the problem of climate change can never be solved.

While the federal government can possibly do that, and it is a huge possibility, trying to get the states to change at the grassroots is of far greater impact, and efficiency, as that is the Number 1 problem that USA faces. Not a lack of federal imposition, but a lack of grassroots understanding in America. And the one thing Americans hate perhaps the most is being told what to do by men in suits.