Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

scientificamerican.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 198 posts

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#41

Post by kartan »

watwut wrote: post #24
kartan wrote: post #17

The article mixes two ideas that partially contradict each other. 1. Tests like the SAT, ACT, the GRE [...] You end up with people who are good at taking tests and fiddling with phones and computers, and those are good skills but they are not tantamount to the skills we need to make the world a better place. 2. Do we know how to cultivate wisdom? Yes we do. I agree with the second statement, and its implications are…

Why do you think American developers are non creative non social people? Both conference/hackatlon/meetup culture and startups who sell themselves to potential employees on cool cultures suggest that American developers are way more social then they like to admit. Non-social people tend to produce culture that is less fanatic to various socialization ways. Add to it companies that really follow agile processes extrem…

> conference/hackatlon/meetup culture and startups who sell themselves to potential employees on cool cultures suggest that American developers are way more social then they like to admit

That's my point. They are social, but they can't be like that in companies that value long hour days and weekend work.

It is not the developers that are not social, but that "old fashioned" companies force them in a more restricted, non-creative behavior. In a traditional waterfall model, developers are supposed to be implementers, not thinkers. In that kind of company, everything is hierarchical and creativity is not expected. So their developers behave that way. And I will guess that it is that the model of developer that the article is talking about.

The article, for sure, is not talking about the developers that you describe. And that's my problem with the assumption in the article that people that are good at a technical problem are not social. :)

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#42

Post by tptacek »

reefoctopus wrote: post #8
svend wrote: post #3

I stopped reading at "IQ rose 30 points in the 20th century around the world.."

The Flynn effect says IQ rises 2.93 points per decade. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

The Flynn effect documents an increase in IQ, but does not say there will be a consistent 2.93 point increase --- in fact, the increase is not consistent, but rather concentrates in areas of lower socioeconomic status.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#43

Post by jrochkind1 »

pirocks wrote: post #18

As a high school student I find the hating on the SAT/ACT a little concerning, since once you remove standardized testing, admissions is primarily based on GPA(which imo has massive flaws the most important flaw being lack of consistency across schools). Also this article doesn't sound all that "scientific" to me.

What makes you think basing admissions on SAT/ACT does not also have 'major flaws'?

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#44

Post by dragonwriter »

mmirate wrote: post #36
accountyaccount wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes sense considering the U.S. is a society where you have no value unless you work. The presiding political party doesn't think you should have food and housing unless you have a job.

> you have no value unless you work This subjunctive clause, stands alone as a true statement. How else does one earn money?

> This subjunctive clause, stands alone as a true statement. How else does one earn money?

Well, one can gain money from passive rents on capital without work.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#45

Post by CogitoCogito »

oculusthrift wrote: post #27
CogitoCogito wrote: post #23

I see many parallels with the post and my own experience. I got my PhD in math and taught many college math courses during that time. I was always saddened at the number of students that essentially viewed math as just an exercise in the memorization of algorithms (memorize differentiation and integration rules and chug away at problems). I would avoid teaching this way and instead give them fewer, "deeper" problems…

there is definitely two distinct intelligences. one that relies on knowledge and memorization and one in reason. Much of math is taught the knowledge way, similiar to history or biology, and a certain type of person excels at this. However, a different set excel at the reasoning approach. i don't think one approach can teach all people howeverZ

It's definitely true that there is no one size fits all. It's unfortunate that we can't truly tailor learning individually in a class setting (well maybe technology can successfully change this, but I still don't think it's the case). When teaching one on one it is much easier to quickly hone in on a specific student's difficulty, but rarely are you afforded the opportunity.

Also I don't want anyone to think that I believe that rote learning is bad per se. Memorizing basic steps is extremely important. That is what allows you to focus on the important aspects of a problem as opposed to the details. For example, you would be a fool to try to learn German grammar before you get a good enough base of vocabulary. In fact, I think one of the best first steps when learning something new is really memorizing the basics well.

However, I come from the perspective that rote learning has been overdone. Most people come through their math education and never leave that learning style. That is what I find unfortunate and wish were different.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#47

Post by lightsighter »

pirocks wrote: post #18

As a high school student I find the hating on the SAT/ACT a little concerning, since once you remove standardized testing, admissions is primarily based on GPA(which imo has massive flaws the most important flaw being lack of consistency across schools). Also this article doesn't sound all that "scientific" to me.

I agree with you, but if I were an admissions officer I would also like to see the SAT/ACT be two different numbers: one being your score when you took it as a freshman and a second from late in your junior year so I can see the delta. If you're a great test taker and both scores are equally high I can see that, but I can also see the case where someone with a very low initial score might have improved it greatly to an average score and I can infer that they might not have the best IQ, but that they are at least working hard at improving, which is also a valuable signal from an admissions perspective. Maybe we should standardize when the tests are given and that there be multiple scores recorded over time.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#48

Post by 24gttghh »

Shivetya wrote: post #16

Look at the hundreds of billions of dollars the DOE has spent since its inception under President Carter and ask, why have scores and graduations rates not show real improvement? Why are we still asking the same questions we did back then? If there were one Federal agency in dire need of dissolution it is that one. Give the money to states in grants and see which one comes up with the better solution

A DARPA for education. I like that idea. EARPA. By what metrics would we measure their sucess, since people can't seem to agree on that?

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#49

Post by neogodless »

nostrademons wrote: post #37
neogodless wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article/interview claims that we can cultivate and test for virtue (creativity and wisdom), and that our current tests used to funnel intelligence into higher education and intelligence work isn't currently accounting for it. I'm not sure where in the article the claim is made that it cannot be improved upon.

"Improved upon" assumes something that is constant on the level of long-term worldview, not something that may change situationally. You wouldn't usually say that your choice of what to have for dinner or which sweater to buy can be "improved upon", but many of the individual choices we make that lead to the world we currently live in are on that level. I guess the article does mention engaging the ethical reasoning…

I see what you're saying about the virtues being "different based on the situation and/or other variables." However, that doesn't mean you can't "improve upon" the ability to make virtuous choices.

In your dinner example, if someone has only math and finance education, they might simply say that fast food is the best choice for dinner. But if they get some nutrition education, suddenly they're wondering if maybe something healthier might be worth the financial trade off. So you can absolutely improve decision making with education. That example didn't include virtues, though it could include making decisions for others (i.e. your family) that improve their lives. Of course, wisdom about nutrition is a more direct example of something you might not teach or test for, but in this case, it is useful.

Sure, there are situations where the choices are just between two fast foods, and neither choice will seem wise, but again, if only taught the individual math rather than creativity, they might not realize that there's also a fresh produce market (i.e. a third choice!) hiding around the corner.

Re: An alarm about the influence of standardized tests on American society

#50

Post by CogitoCogito »

ezekg wrote: post #30
CogitoCogito wrote: post #23

I see many parallels with the post and my own experience. I got my PhD in math and taught many college math courses during that time. I was always saddened at the number of students that essentially viewed math as just an exercise in the memorization of algorithms (memorize differentiation and integration rules and chug away at problems). I would avoid teaching this way and instead give them fewer, "deeper" problems…

Awesome comment! I wish you were my math teacher back in the day. I was one of those "bad" ones and I've recently had to go back and (re)learn a lot so that I could get a better grasp of CS fundamentals and become a better software developer.

Thanks! It's definitely a long road. Unfortunately you'll realistically never be able to learn the basics as well as people who fused them into their heads well over the course of 12-15 years of education, but you what can do is "learn how to learn". If you acquire the patience and confidence, you will be able to understand better what you really need to understand. It's a long road and a lot of work, but if you actively work towards that goal, you'll definitely improve more than you ever thought you could. Good luck!
Post reply on HN