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Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

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Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#101

Post by alexwyser »

datawalke wrote: post #87
lkrubner wrote: post #79

I am confused by this: "and I am still making around $500/week. Which, in the beginning was great. However over the past year I have moved out, bought a car (out of need, the other died), gotten married, and have had a child. (With a second one on the way.)" Why would you have 2 children if you are making $500 a week? Does your spouse make a lot of money? Do you live in one of the developed countries, or a 3rd world…

As alexwyser said, I'm a bit odd. My wife first got Pregnant a few months after I got this job. (I worked there a bit over 14 months now. The first two months were really just be doing a design or two. for them.) Before this job the money from the other startups was even more sporadic. This, was almost a relief, having a solid amount of money per week at a job where I could do what I liked. (The area has few other te…

BTW, you should check out the who's hiring thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1438505 even the older ones like these: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1215633

and my freelancing partnership offer is always there, and is something I hope you'll consider.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#102

Post by mmaunder »

rubinelli wrote: post #73
datawalke wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you very much for your reply. I agree with you on all aspects. It would be too risky for me to do anything but act normal until I settle my future plans out. One mistake I would have made would have been on the disclosure of my salary -- Thank you. And admittedly, working at this company has been very fun and a great experience for me. However the nature of how the founder is and the current compensation drove…

After you say you are not allowed to disclose your current salary, they will ask you your intended salary. You should research your market's average salary in advance, and if possible, ask other developers in the company to give you an approximate figure. Aim a bit higher so you have a margin to negotiate. Don't go too high, or they'll think you lost contact with reality.

Please don't do that. Get them to throw out a salary first and flinch at their first offer. Then ask for more. Don't you dare discuss salary with developers in the company that is interviewing you.

You're going to need to learn to negotiate. This is the only book you'll ever need on negotiating. Even if you don't use a single one of these tactics (and I guarantee you will) you'll at least get an education of how much of an art negotiating is.

http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Power-Negotiating-Roger-Dawson...

Whether you're hiring, selling a company, getting hired or raising money - this is required reading for doing business.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#103

Post by datawalke »

alexwyser wrote: post #101
datawalke wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As alexwyser said, I'm a bit odd. My wife first got Pregnant a few months after I got this job. (I worked there a bit over 14 months now. The first two months were really just be doing a design or two. for them.) Before this job the money from the other startups was even more sporadic. This, was almost a relief, having a solid amount of money per week at a job where I could do what I liked. (The area has few other te…

BTW, you should check out the who's hiring thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1438505 even the older ones like these: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1215633 and my freelancing partnership offer is always there, and is something I hope you'll consider.

Will do! Thank you. :)

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#104

Post by chime »

patio11 wrote: post #2

I realize that feelings of loyalty to an employer can skew one's perspective on things. (Oh boy, do I.) You need to hear someone say this, so I'll be a bit blunt: 1) You are being drastically underpaid relative to your market worth. 2) The fact of you being underpaid will cause material hardship for your wife and children. 3) Your boss is exploiting you. Illegally, to boot. 4) Your boss will not stop exploiting you.…

> You are being drastically underpaid relative to your market worth.

Ha! Tell me about it. My current salary is $78k in Florida and I'm a jack-of-all-IT-trades. I answered a few Craigslist job ads and got offers for $100k+ in my own city. I'm soon starting a job that pays about $120k-150k (depending on my productivity/hours). That's a 70-90% pay-raise with almost no effort in searching. Also I get a lot more benefits, fewer responsibilities, and an actual bonus/raise/review schedule. Being loyal in this day and day will only get you exploited.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#105

Post by moxiemk1 »

sliverstorm wrote: post #48

Just to give you an idea of where you stand pay-scale wise, I am a student employed part-time. I make about the same as you during breaks when I have the time to put in full-time hours. You are making student money for professional hours.

Perhaps an even sadder comparison, as an intern at a web development company putting in similar hours, I'm making more than double that. You are clearly more experienced and skilled than I am; you deserve much much more.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#106

Post by patio11 »

santry wrote: post #100
techiferous wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you CAN negotiate, it isn't evil" This is generally an option, but in this case it is not in the original poster's best interest to negotiate. The only proper course of action is to leave. His employer has demonstrated how he prefers to do business and that's not going to change. Negotiation can win you the battle, but there will be plenty more down the line. Might as well get hired by more scrupulous employers (and…

I believe Patrick was suggesting he negotiate with potential future employers for a fair salary, not with his current employer.

Right. I see no point negotiating with people who cannot be trusted to uphold their end of the bargain.

Incidentally, I would never suggest that anyone negotiate with the goal of getting a "fair" salary. I think that is our inner serf talking. Find your inner hedge fund trader and send him instead. Sure, $60k might be a marked improvement in your standard of living, but if you think "Oh yeah, that is fair", you're probably not going to say "That offer is interesting. Can you do better?" and get $5k extra (plus compounding on your annual raises, plus a higher peg on every future position in your career) for two sentences of work.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#107

Post by datawalke »

mmaunder wrote: post #102
rubinelli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you say you are not allowed to disclose your current salary, they will ask you your intended salary. You should research your market's average salary in advance, and if possible, ask other developers in the company to give you an approximate figure. Aim a bit higher so you have a margin to negotiate. Don't go too high, or they'll think you lost contact with reality.

Please don't do that. Get them to throw out a salary first and flinch at their first offer. Then ask for more. Don't you dare discuss salary with developers in the company that is interviewing you. You're going to need to learn to negotiate. This is the only book you'll ever need on negotiating. Even if you don't use a single one of these tactics (and I guarantee you will) you'll at least get an education of how much…

I actually have listened to this on audio tape. It is an awesome book and I'd recommend it to anyone.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#108

Post by datawalke »

lkrubner wrote: post #98
lkrubner wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also write: "Yet, he treats us like employees. We have required working times, usually 8AM - 6PM, we only get a half hour lunch with no other breaks, and are on-call 24-7. Honestly, those items don't even bother me that much. " On the bright side, it is illegal for him to treat independent contractors like this, so you can sue him if you want. The IRS has been cracking down on exactly this form of abuse lately.

I'm fairly sure you can sue him and get him to pay the 15% for the Social Security tax. You might be interested in this article: http://www.inc.com/guides/managing-independent-contractors.h... This article is actually aimed at the employers, but it warns them about the IRS re-classifying contractors as employees. Some interesting bits: "Legally, the contract is a key part of establishing a non-employee relationship,…

Thank you lkrubner for the article. I will be reading it over shortly.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#109

Post by patrickgzill »

At the very least, if you are paid with 1099, be sure to document a lot of your expenses, such as all mileage used to travel, meals you paid for with another person where you discussed business, etc. Find a decent but cheap accountant who has experience with small businesses and they will at least help you greatly reduce your tax burden.

Oh yes, you are being exploited, plan to get out and make a huge amount more once you find a better position.

Re: Ask HN: Typical Startup or Abuse?

#110

Post by Silhouette »

mmaunder wrote: post #102
rubinelli wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After you say you are not allowed to disclose your current salary, they will ask you your intended salary. You should research your market's average salary in advance, and if possible, ask other developers in the company to give you an approximate figure. Aim a bit higher so you have a margin to negotiate. Don't go too high, or they'll think you lost contact with reality.

Please don't do that. Get them to throw out a salary first and flinch at their first offer. Then ask for more. Don't you dare discuss salary with developers in the company that is interviewing you. You're going to need to learn to negotiate. This is the only book you'll ever need on negotiating. Even if you don't use a single one of these tactics (and I guarantee you will) you'll at least get an education of how much…

It's true as a general principle of negotiation that the person who states a number first is at a disadvantage. However, someone has to budge sooner or later, and as long as you're being realistic there isn't really much to lose by giving the target. If it's out of range of what they're willing to pay, you might as well all know that up front and not waste each other's time.

Sure, if it may not get the optimal deal that might have been available. However, the original poster here is (a) in a relatively weak bargaining position because he's under pressure to move, and (b) so badly paid at the moment that any reasonable offer is still going to be a huge improvement in both money and working conditions.

For what it's worth, I agree with the earlier comment about not disclosing current salary. It's fine for them to ask what you're looking for, and it's fine to have negotiation, but there is no legitimate reason a prospective employer would ever need to know what you've been working on already. I have never accepted a job from a company that asked me for that information during an interview and persisted when I politely declined to give it, and if I were still working as an employee today I would consider it a huge red flag if interviewers (particularly management/HR types) stuck to their guns on that one. Also, in this case, disclosing the absurdly low compensation at present would make the poster look very weak and undermine any otherwise reasonable and honest story about outgrowing the company and looking for somewhere their improving skills will be better utilised.

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