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As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

nytimes.com

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Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#121

Post by raphman »

wayn3 wrote: post #46
NickGerleman wrote: post #26

I've been a TA for a couple CS classes at Iowa State University. Cheating here at least is pretty rampant. I would guess 1/3 or more of the students cheat in some capacity. Some of it is really easy to detect too. For a first semester freshman class, I tried using MinHash to cluster student submissions together. Maybe 10% of the assignment have near duplicate pieces of code. More comprehensive methods like MOSS (Meas…

In germany, what you call cheating isnt even considered cheating. On homework, we openly collaborated and handed in near duplicates without trying to hide it. Some students would just copy the work of others. None of this mattered. Nobody "went after" it. It just gets graded, you get your points and you move on. Most people accept the fact that grades don't matter, but you need them for your resume. For some reason,…

> In germany, what you call cheating isnt even considered cheating.

Having taught computer science and HCI courses for ten years at German (Bavarian) universities, I can not agree.

Of course, some professors/groups are more interested in finding and addressing plagiarism than others. However, I have only once encountered a professor who didn't really care about a plagiarised thesis.

In general, addressing cheating is much easier in Germany, as professors and teaching assistants usually may (and have to) take appropriate measures themselves without involving deans and examination offices.

Typically, teaching assistants will check submitted assignments both manually and automatically (usually using MOSS or JPlag, sometimes custom scripts). If plagiarism is found, affected students are called in to a meeting with the teaching assistant to present their side. Unless students can present evidence that they are not at fault, they are given a stern talking and a failing grade. If students do not accept the outcome, they can ask for an appointment with the professor (very few do this). If the professor upholds the decision (which they ususally do), students may escalate the case to the dean. This is done very rarely (I know of only one case).

In my experience, staff at German universities definitely cares about countering cheating. We will certainly never catch every cheater.

However, I would even argue that addressing cheating is easier in Germany, as the process is generally more light-weight than at Anglo-American universities. As students face fewer consequences for admitting cheating (just failing the course, not getting expelled), they usually accept these consequences and try not to get caught again.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#123

Post by wayn3 »

raphman wrote: post #121
wayn3 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In germany, what you call cheating isnt even considered cheating. On homework, we openly collaborated and handed in near duplicates without trying to hide it. Some students would just copy the work of others. None of this mattered. Nobody "went after" it. It just gets graded, you get your points and you move on. Most people accept the fact that grades don't matter, but you need them for your resume. For some reason,…

> In germany, what you call cheating isnt even considered cheating. Having taught computer science and HCI courses for ten years at German (Bavarian) universities, I can not agree. Of course, some professors/groups are more interested in finding and addressing plagiarism than others. However, I have only once encountered a professor who didn't really care about a plagiarised thesis. In general, addressing cheating is…

I'm not talking about Theses. I'm talking about "übungszettel".

I'm aware of the fact that bavaria takes a bit of a harsher stance on this.

In Heidelberg, nobody gives even the slightest crap about "cheating". But as I said, it isn't considered cheating anyway. Students are expected to collaborate on these things.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#124

Post by thegayngler »

xor1 wrote: post #94
srdeveng wrote: post #5

My engineering courses were filled with cheaters. Fortunately, these become apparent in the workplace and filter out in the first few years. Any major with promise of wealth will have those who will resort to ill means to get ahead in the system. Again, fortunately, many are weeded out in later stages.

>Fortunately, these become apparent in the workplace and filter out in the first few years. "Filter out" aka get promoted to management and earn more than they ever did as developers.

Which is why I think developers should be paid the same as managers. People actually building/creating/maintaining the product/service are at least as useful as people managers.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#125

Post by flukus »

c0rruptbytes wrote: post #22

anyone who relies on cheating never seems to do well during the harder major courses at my school (Texas). A lot of the professors have really rigorous cheating detections, and will make you explain every line of code in person if they suspect something. (At least in honor classes) Also, I don't know what these people expect when they have to do a technical interview?

> Also, I don't know what these people expect when they have to do a technical interview?

They probably don't know they exist, they're fairly unique to our industry. They probably expect interviews to be just like everywhere else, all smiles and dressing well, with generic "when have you been challenged in life" questions.

A lot of them will get hired by big corporates that don't do code tests too, that's why even people with 10 years of experience have to do FizzBuzz.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#126

Post by bottled_poe »

closeparen wrote: post #87
chrismcb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the University's job to teach people how to code. University isn't a vocational school. Yes, one should know how to code when they graduate. But the school is usually trying to teach the theory not the coding

What? Almost the entire meat of my CS program was programming projects in a variety of foundational domains (operating systems, networking, concurrency, databases, graphics, compilers, cryptography, machine learning, visualization, etc). Theory (discrete math, algorithms, formal languages) was 3 courses out of an 18-course program. HN keeps talking like it's the only thing you do in a CS major, which is bizarre.

Where I studied, our lecturers expected us to learn the fundamentals of whichever programming language on our own time. The vast majority of our courses were focused on theory of CS/physics/maths/engineering/etc. That might explain why our class size dropped from around 100 in first year to around 15 by 4th year.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#127

Post by [deleted] »

chrismcb wrote: post #76
jdmichal wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a lecturer as a close friend in college. He was only a lecturer because he refused to do a dissertation to complete his doctorate. He was the best teacher in the department. So it goes. Anyway, he would get up in front of the staff meetings and say, the school is graduating students who do not know how to code. The school didn't care; they got paid. Every class of any import had team projects because "that's wh…

It isn't the University's job to teach people how to code. University isn't a vocational school. Yes, one should know how to code when they graduate. But the school is usually trying to teach the theory not the coding

[deleted]

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#128

Post by Nition »

apetresc wrote: post #79
chrismcb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the University's job to teach people how to code. University isn't a vocational school. Yes, one should know how to code when they graduate. But the school is usually trying to teach the theory not the coding

Let's keep it real, the cheaters aren't opting out of learning to code because they want to dedicate all that extra time to mastering the theory instead.

The real problem is, the idealised goal of a university should be "learn something", but it's actually "get a degree".

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#129

Post by jmkni »

chrismcb wrote: post #75
glangdale wrote: post #23

This is hugely important as a lot of people see programming as a ticket into higher-end jobs and will spend as little time as individual contributors as they can. The idea that "oh, they'll get caught in the workforce" is not correct - quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management, technical marketing, etc. and never have their…

And most of these people can't code fizzbuzz... Which is why it is so important to ask a question line that. Most of these people will also fail a whiteboard interview spectacularly.

The thing About FizBuzz is that, if you Google programmer interview questions, it's the first thing that shows up and takes about 2 minutes to wrap your head around.

Somebody who can't do Fizzbuzz in an interview has literally done zero preparation for that interview.

Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating

#130

Post by danielbarla »

closeparen wrote: post #87
chrismcb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the University's job to teach people how to code. University isn't a vocational school. Yes, one should know how to code when they graduate. But the school is usually trying to teach the theory not the coding

What? Almost the entire meat of my CS program was programming projects in a variety of foundational domains (operating systems, networking, concurrency, databases, graphics, compilers, cryptography, machine learning, visualization, etc). Theory (discrete math, algorithms, formal languages) was 3 courses out of an 18-course program. HN keeps talking like it's the only thing you do in a CS major, which is bizarre.

I suspect there's a fair bit of variance between CS courses, and even how we remember it.

In my case, the topics were similar to the list you give (although there were a significant number of optional classes which I filled with math, skewing it a lot), but the subjects were definitely more theory-focused than practical. Sure, there were practical classes for each subject, weekly projects, semester projects and so on, but they were secondary to the theory in both quantity and difficulty. As an example, you might deep dive into a number of networking protocols, but in the same period only implement a toy TCP/IP during a prac.

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