This is how this happens: https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/
As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
91–100 of 303 posts
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#92In this case, I believe, the prevalence of cheating among CS students isn't higher than cheating among students of other courses in the same universities, or elsewhere. Even in public health, occasionally, the prevalence of a certain disease goes up courtesy of technological advancement. The prevalence of that disease in a population that was initially low or unknown suddenly shoots up because the means with which to…
This is exactly it, in my opinion. It's much easier to catch cheating by running homework code through something like MOSS than relying on a human TA to catch that 2 handwritten math assignments are exactly alike. I TAed both CS and Math classes at a large state school and once caught ~20% of a 50 person math class on a homework assignment because they had all copied a mis-labeled problem from the solutions manual. It's probable that they had all been cheating up to that point but I couldn't tell. It turns out, the Math department as a policy doesn't try to do anything about cheating and just encourages lecturers to base the majority of the final grade on exams. I can't say this works much better because I've sat next to a student 2 separate times during exams who obviously had their phone out and was reading from it. The rate of cheating is probably lower in exams but lecturers should be more proactive about it.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#93I've been a TA for a couple CS classes at Iowa State University. Cheating here at least is pretty rampant. I would guess 1/3 or more of the students cheat in some capacity. Some of it is really easy to detect too. For a first semester freshman class, I tried using MinHash to cluster student submissions together. Maybe 10% of the assignment have near duplicate pieces of code. More comprehensive methods like MOSS (Meas…
In germany, what you call cheating isnt even considered cheating. On homework, we openly collaborated and handed in near duplicates without trying to hide it. Some students would just copy the work of others. None of this mattered. Nobody "went after" it. It just gets graded, you get your points and you move on. Most people accept the fact that grades don't matter, but you need them for your resume. For some reason,…
Would you be alarmed if you found out your doctor had entirely cheated their way through medical school and knew very little medicine?
Great, you figured out that grades aren't a perfect metric. But so what? Grades don't prove a student is great, but they can eliminate a lot of students that are bad. If the bad students just cheat their way through, everyone else down the line suffers for it.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#94My engineering courses were filled with cheaters. Fortunately, these become apparent in the workplace and filter out in the first few years. Any major with promise of wealth will have those who will resort to ill means to get ahead in the system. Again, fortunately, many are weeded out in later stages.
>Fortunately, these become apparent in the workplace and filter out in the first few years.
"Filter out" aka get promoted to management and earn more than they ever did as developers.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#95No one talks about the fact that current CS curricula are fundamentally flawed. Too much time is spent in class, and on homework and one is left with little time to do "real" work.
Define "real" work. There's a lot on HN about the dichotomy between "boot camps are enough for a software engineer job" and "you need to know computer science fundamentals to be a software engineer," but both teeter on the No True Scotsman fallacy. Granted, I do think that CS curricula should include actually implementing things in production.
>Define "real" work.
Things that generate profit. In 2017, that mostly means CRUD backends and mobile apps.
Before you get upset with my definition, don't take it up with me, take it up with capitalism.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#96This is hugely important as a lot of people see programming as a ticket into higher-end jobs and will spend as little time as individual contributors as they can. The idea that "oh, they'll get caught in the workforce" is not correct - quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management, technical marketing, etc. and never have their…
quite often the plan in the mind of these folks is that they will try to fake their way through and be moved up into project management Wait a minute, are you saying all I have to do to be promoted to Project Management is to code really badly? Hmm. I wonder if C# has GOTOs...
Even better! It has exceptions! You can write code that deliberately throws an exception where the handler calls a function. It's more like come-froms than GOTOs.
Please don't do this.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#97Earlier quoted context omitted.
The solution is effective hiring. Work sample or project based hiring methods get people to demonstrate their skill-sets. I once had a candidate refer to resume/conversation based hiring as 'ritualized lying'. I think that's bang on. This isn't directly in response to your comment, but... There's an elitist under(over?)-tone within HackerNews that asserts any less-than-engineer technical role is inferior and attracti…
The whole "effective hiring" answer doesn't scale. I am absolutely appalled at the idea that I would have to do a 'fizzbuzz' test for a purportedly senior developer listing 'strong C/C++ skills', for example. However, that's the reality we face, and part of that reality comes from having people be comfortable with lying their way into our "profession" and us not be completely aghast when it happens. A fake doctor or…
> A fake doctor or accountant is a scandal. A fake programmer is business as usual.
I generally agree with your points, but people don't die or go to jail because of bad code. With a few exceptions. And in those exceptions there are additional checks (checklists upon checklists, rigorous testing gauntlets) to prevent buggy code from causing safety issues.
Technically underqualified people typically result in missed deadlines and/or poor project velocity. That can be catastrophic for a business model, but it doesn't directly result in any kids growing up without a parent.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#98Anecdote time:
My friend is currently doing a Computer Science MS at a university that I'm sure most people on HN have heard of. She got accepted with an unrelated undergrad degree (though still STEM) and two Intro to Programming community college courses she took after graduating (which she cheated her way through by paying her roommate at the time to do all of her homework).
She hits me up for help with her homework/projects all the time. I'll help her a bit and then tell her how to look up everything else she needs to know on her own, but she always ends up falling back on another friend, who just completes the assignments for her.
Homework + group projects count enough where she can bomb her tests and still pass. She's about a year into programming coursework now, and still struggles with just about anything outside of for loops and print statements. She is extremely good at math, though, (tbh she's just really smart overall), so those courses and the theory itself aren't giving her any trouble.
I initially told her that spending 3 years getting the MS would be a waste of time for her, and she'd be better off learning on her own or maybe even doing a bootcamp, but now I realize that she doesn't actually care about becoming proficient or even competent when it comes to software development.
She's going to get her MS, and someone will undoubtedly hire her based on a CS MS that she obtained through cheating, and a resume that goes past embellishment and has outright lies. At worst she ends up at a defense contractor that bills $200/hr (and pays her 1/3 of that) for her to just sit around and read Reddit on her phone all day.
I really feel like a huge sucker sometimes for always having been completely honest, both in terms of school and work. I've never cheated and I've never lied or exaggerated about anything related to work, in regards to both job applications and employment. When I think about it, it's cost me a lot.
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#99What's with the obsession with student assessment over student learning? At the end of the day the student has to perform, and there are plenty of opportunities to build up a network of people that will assert you know your stuff. Why is it that grades are still a thing at this level?
A network of people who will assert you know your stuff, right. Friends will say whatever you want them to say. A guy I worked with, who never shipped anything, had no idea how to code at all, who got black out wasted several times during company events, explicitely propositioned the male CTO (they were both straight), harassed every single women in the company (seriously, like, 100+) in just the amount of time it took to get the paperwork in order to fire him...
And he found a new job at a freagin bank as a senior engineer 2 weeks later. Because "a network of people asserted he knew his stuff".
(As to how he got hired in the first place...people "asserted he knew his stuff" and I assume he was pretty good at tricking people in interviews. Interview process sucked, mind you, but since people will get fussy if you ask them to code in an interview, well...)
Re: As Computer Coding Classes Swell, So Does Cheating
#100I wonder if the most effective cheaters in school end up being more or less successful both as coders and professionally in general.
"Hacking" is in a sense related to cheating (finding easier solutions to problems...).