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Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

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Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#251
post #172
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your moral principles are very different from mine. I don't feel like I (or the state) should have a say about what goes on inside of Facebook's servers, they can do whatever they want with the information they have as long as the don't use coercion (to me, freedom is the lack of coercion). That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it, we must educate people, w…

The state is our collective will, on a national level. People like to refer to them and us but the government is us.

According to Max Weber, Something is "a 'state' if and insofar as its administrative staff successfully upholds a claim on the 'monopoly of the legitimate use of physical force'. I am not part of the state, the state is the president, the congressmen, the taxman, but not "us".

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#252
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, your moral principles are very different from mine. I don't feel like I (or the state) should have a say about what goes on inside of Facebook's servers, they can do whatever they want with the information they have as long as the don't use coercion (to me, freedom is the lack of coercion). That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it, we must educate people, w…

> they can do whatever they want with the information they have What if they decide to publish online your computed profile? Maybe they know you better than yourself. > as long as the don't use coercion Isn't influence or suggestion a kind of coercion? Why do you think they spend so much resources on profiling everyone? > That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it,…

I'm not being coerced to use Facebook, there's not threat of physical violence involved. I choose to use the web, if some site has fb trackers I can disable cookies, I can disable JS, I can do whatever I want with my computer in order to not give them my info.

Yes, there is influence, and I would certainly prefer it to no be like that, but freedom of people to use a lousy service as fb is still freedom, and freedom is more important than my feelings.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that defeat? I have no desire to waste my precious time in an unwinnable arms race. My freedom of action and self-expression are my primary operational need, and I don't want to spend my life creeping around trying to conceal every fact about myself that might be employed as an attack vector. That's not liberty.

Don't you get it? It's not just about you. It's about all around you . When you're using Facebook, you are doing 2 things: first, you reveal the personal information of everyone around you (bit by bit, each time you reveal your personal information). Second, you strengthen the network effect that incite, sometimes even force people to cave in, use Facebook themselves, and thus reveal their private information. You do…

Who are these people around me whose information I'm revealing, pray tell?

You don't know it, but using Facebook is not just a personal choice. It's a political choice.

I do know that, I don't know why you would think otherwise. Whether you understand my political motives is another question, though it's clear you don't agree with them.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that defeat? I have no desire to waste my precious time in an unwinnable arms race. My freedom of action and self-expression are my primary operational need, and I don't want to spend my life creeping around trying to conceal every fact about myself that might be employed as an attack vector. That's not liberty.

You are now officially part of the problem.

But I'm under no obligation to limit my own utility so as to maximize the pool of people who are not on FB so that your digital footprint is proportionately more shallow, Jacques.

Suppose, in any case, that I persuaded my valued social circle (perhaps 10 intimates, 40 casual friends, 150 acquaintances) to move off FB to some other platform. This is unlikely as I'm not the only or most important reason reason they're on FB, but anyway: what would be different? OK, there would be less commercial exploitation of our information, but that doesn't seem like your primary concern. The NSA would, doubtless, still be vacuuming up our conversations just as the NSA vacuums up all the discussions we have here, and can easily cross reference our HN handles with our more detailed and specific identities on other platforms. I could posit a secure platform where everything was encrypted and all interpersonal communications metadata on said platform was cryptographically obscured, but then we'd have 200 going to the same site every day, presumably to communicate with each other in secret. That in itself would be of interest to intelligence gatherers, and how difficult would it be to social engineer oneself into a group of 200 people? Not very, and once inside one has most of the access one needs already because otherwise where is the utility?

I can't help feeling that you're arguing for a very highly highly elaborated version of security through obscurity. I prefer the security of knowing that if anything happens to me it will upset enough people to have negative ramifications for my antagonist. I find the conceit that we can have a situation where private actors enjoy all the benefits of instantaneous and frictionless communication but government actors are enjoined from participating even at the user level by virtue of the political authority they wield neither theoretically nor practically sensible.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are now officially part of the problem.

I don't use Facebook either, and I've suffered for it, but I find your analysis here both overly simplistic and hampered by an obsolete framework. With a billion daily active users, the problem is well beyond the individual human scale. Facebook lives , in its own right. If those users were cells, Facebook would be an organism of quite respectable size. There's only one action I can see, on the part of the individual…

I agree with this. Google and FB are semi conscious artificial intelligences. I further doubt that the chief executives or technologists at either firm enjoy direct conversation with said entities - they can communicate with them, but only in the crude reflexive manner of a doctor hitting your knee with a hammer.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're so close to what I am currently building that I feel like I have to chime in. I left Apple's security team a few months ago to go solo and build an app that is similar to Facebook/Instagram and Snapchat in terms of functionality and UX but uses the Olm protocol (similar to Signal) to protect all content. So, fear not - something is being done, and I'm sure I'm not the only one working in this problem space. I…

I see the problem with this is gaining traction. With no users on board you'll have no users on board. Unless ofc you're just building this for yourself and your friends, which is something I thought about doing myself but then realized that even my friends cba to install yet another chat app.

> I see the problem with this is gaining traction. With no users on board you'll have no users on board

That's the same reason Facebook would never beat MySpace and MySpace would lose out to Friendster.

Metcalf's Law and initial traction are real challenges to achieving critical mass of users, but it has been done. I'm biased to hope for @ghughes success and that enough people care about privacy to give it or similar services a shot.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use Facebook either, and I've suffered for it, but I find your analysis here both overly simplistic and hampered by an obsolete framework. With a billion daily active users, the problem is well beyond the individual human scale. Facebook lives , in its own right. If those users were cells, Facebook would be an organism of quite respectable size. There's only one action I can see, on the part of the individual…

I agree with this. Google and FB are semi conscious artificial intelligences. I further doubt that the chief executives or technologists at either firm enjoy direct conversation with said entities - they can communicate with them, but only in the crude reflexive manner of a doctor hitting your knee with a hammer.

I don't think they are conscious, i.e. self-aware, at even a minimal level; it's a human conceit to imagine that such awareness is other than orthogonal to intelligence. And even as intelligence goes, I should have to think theirs, whatever there is of it, is akin to that of an ant colony, rather than anything more like we'd recognize as resembling our own selves - and even that is really something of a philosophical point.

In any case, I'm less interested in parsing details of precisely which speculative definitions of artificial intelligence Facebook taken as a whole might satisfy, than taking the view (if perhaps only for the sake of this argument) that it does certainly satisfy at least some definitions of life based on its behavior, in particular its evident tropisms toward growth and self-preservation, for which no particular intelligence is even necessary - kudzu need not be intelligent to be a pestilential and highly effective thief of the resources required for a proper ecology to thrive.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#259

Google does some pretty scary stuff too. I made a point of never giving them my mobile number or any "real information" about me. When a friend of mine added me to his contacts, on his Android phone, he also added one of email addresses to the contact, which is the same one I used to register my Google account. The phone automatically connected the mail address to my Google account and now every time I call him the (…

The phone automatically connected the mail address to my Google account and now every time I call him the (anonymous) picture of my Google profile shows up on his phone. That behavior doesn't require Google to have associated your phone number with your account; the mapping could be happening entirely on your friend's phone.

True, but it's still scary how the phone seems to be able to reverse lookup my email address to come up with the matching Google account. Which, I might add, originally started out as a YouTube account.

Considering how much Google tracks, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't save that mapping somewhere besides my friend's phone because this is exactly the kind of data aggregation and mapping which is driving large parts of Google's ad business.

I admit this might just be paranoia, tho this wouldn't be the first time my paranoia ended up being justified.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the massive income Facebook generates only imply that the people spending money on targeted ads believe (!) these ad are working. It is not a prove per se these ads really are worth their costs.

>It is not a prove per se these ads really are worth their costs. So you think that Facebook has collectively convinced thousands of businesses who are repeat customers to use something that is losing them money?

Yes?
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