Live data from Hacker News

Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

bbc.co.uk

171–180 of 302 posts

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#171
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would be more like Facebook, if you 1) would publish your observations or otherwise provide it to third parties 2) sit at nearly all streets all the time, e.g., observing whatever those house guests are up to the rest of their time. Imagine, you share your observations with, say, a PI who was hired by a paranoid spouse or by someone's employer. Facebook is like a vast and far reaching network of nosy neighbours o…

I'm a little surprised. Do people think that sharing that info with a private investigator would be unethical?

Answer is, that its not clear cut. What is the difference between a private investigator (working for a single party) and the government investigator (working for the city, state or federal level)?

I would think, that advertising in the local press or, having a sign outside the window to the effect that you were able to sell personal and assumed to be private information about the people who lived in the street would provoke an unpleasant reaction.

Doing something purely for your own benefit that you know will cause significant distress to others is sociopathy I think. Perhaps 'unethical' is the wrong word. 'antisocial' definitely covers it though it might not be strong enough.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#172
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical: lacking moral principles. Moral: of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong I think it is "clearly wrong" that Facebook creates shadow profiles, because it is violating the freedom of people who have not signed up for their service, in the same way that it is clearly wrong for me to take away your favorite pet for ritualistic sacri…

Well, your moral principles are very different from mine. I don't feel like I (or the state) should have a say about what goes on inside of Facebook's servers, they can do whatever they want with the information they have as long as the don't use coercion (to me, freedom is the lack of coercion). That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it, we must educate people, w…

The state is our collective will, on a national level. People like to refer to them and us but the government is us.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#173
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love if someone made a Chrome extension that encrypted all the posts and messages you put on Facebook. That is, any post you made would be made as a ciphertext, the extension would swap keys with all your friends in the background, and would decrypt their posts when displaying them to you. Sure Marky Mark still sees when you post, who you send messages to, etc. but it's a much better situation than what's goi…

You're so close to what I am currently building that I feel like I have to chime in. I left Apple's security team a few months ago to go solo and build an app that is similar to Facebook/Instagram and Snapchat in terms of functionality and UX but uses the Olm protocol (similar to Signal) to protect all content. So, fear not - something is being done, and I'm sure I'm not the only one working in this problem space. I…

I'm skeptical as to how worthwhile your effort is as long as the outcome is just another alternative to FB. We've seen countless examples of how these alt-social nets failed. But I do see a lot of value in the tech you might be developing, and if in some way we could embed it into existing social nets, that would be amazing. Fingers crossed!

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#174
post #4

The bigger problem for me is how facebook tracks and identifies even people who do not have a facebook account. They simply infer such a person exists from photograps, contacts and other one sided activity and can start to track that person, tie all this information together and then target them with ads even though they never signed up for Facebook. Such shadow profiles are a much larger problem to me than people wh…

Do European Union users have a recourse against this? Or do they have to create an account, then request a deletion?

With the new EU Data Protection Directive[1], I think they do, since the DPD covers not only EU based companies, but also any company that provides services for EU citizens in the EU (so, Facebook, LinkedIn etc. are covered by this..but also e.g. your little weather app).

The new DPD is very strict, but there are two parts of the directive that a particularly interesting:

- The Data Portability concept: A company covered by the DPD is required to deliver to the user all data the company has on the user, in a standardised format. That means Facebook now has to hand out all your data (information, pics, likes, posts,...) for you to use freely - also in other services. I think this in effect means you own your data. I'm excited to see the effect of this one.

- The right to be forgotten: A company is required to delete all data they have on a user, if the user requests. Actually, if the user invokes this right, the company is not allowed make public, store or process any data related to the user.

From what I hear in discussions between american colleagues, american companies have no clue whats about to hit them. I know there is a mild panic here in Denmark, and the DPD is the most talked about subject in IT at the moment - and we've always been rather anal with the privacy stuff (e.g. cookie-law).

Edit: Oh, I forgot the fun part; this gets a lot of attention due to the sizes of the fines companies get for not adhering to the directive. Fines are up to EUR 20.000.000 or 4% of the company's global annual revenue, whichever is higher. Facebook made USD27.638.000.000 in 2016, so thats a fine of USD1.105.520.000 for not playing nice.

[1]: http://ec.europa.eu/justice/data-protection/reform/index_en....

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#175
The is some kind of disconnect happening here. The tone and content of many comments here reflect an attitude that it's a given that FB having data about, anything, is bad. (Not universally in this comment thread, there are some dissenting views, but I'm reference what I see as the general rhetorical tone.)

My guess is that your average civilian does not view the fact that FB is acquiring vast amounts of data about them, and their social networks, as an a priori "bad thing."

I do hear non tech people make comments that the targeted advertising is creepy. But I doubt many people lose any sleep over this, let alone take dramatic action, like "quitting social media."

So, if one is concerned, on a civic level, that the growing datasets of personal information is a genuine threat to some particular community, and one wanted to act against it, the most important action would be to develop, and share, persuasive arguments to support this point of view.

I do not see such arguments being made. That can persuade an average person that all of this personal data being collected is going to hurt them and/or their community.

On the contrary, there is ever increasing participation in social networking. Many people do not crave privacy: they crave an opposing instinct, which is to be known, and to know about others. A lot of others.

The amount of personal information being actively shared, to as wide of an audience as possible so, on YouTube is astonishing.

In the proverbial "real world" the most dramatic and obvious potential for "cyber-hsrms" are the result of criminal activity.

When is comes to actual and potential threats to individuals and organizations well being, the second largest institutional force would be government. So far, for US citizens, the government has not been causing disproportionate harms from the IT realm, as compared to benefits.

On the other hand, If you were a peasant maimed in an incident of "collateral damage," from a US drone strike, the real world, personal, harm would be immense.

When it comes to the corporate realm, there is a financial-military-intelligence-political complex that is a far greater threat to everyone's life and liberty than FB.

At root, the business of FB is about making connections and sharing information, There are two main realms of activity, which symbiotically support each other. That is, the social realm, and the commerce realm.

These are essentially constructive activities.

There really is a need for companies to market their wares effectively, and FB have created a viable platform to do so.

The value of FB is not just all the user created data. A lot of work and resources go into the technical, marketing, and managerial challenges of building such a company. For many people, trading their personal data to get the social benefits is a "no-brainer."

Personally, I prefer the tracked advertising, as it actually is far more relevant to my interests. I often find interesting products and services, that I might never have otherwise found.

I can certainly imagine scenarios where the hegemony over mass personal information datasets, held by the big tech companies, does in fact lead to objectively bad outcomes for the users of these social networks.

Where I see the biggest threat,that derives from sharing so much personal data with a company like FB, actually relates to the threatening activities of the two large social forces I meantioned above, the government, and criminals.

The government, especially in the US, has vast resources, as well as the exclusive monopoly on legal violence. if it was decided by the executive or legislative branches that it was absolutely essential that Facebook turn over all their data to the intelligence agencies, due to the need to crack down on dissent, social unrest, then, yes this could be bad.

Obviously, if hackers managed do to breach some of these massive datasets, then there could be some very damaging effects.

It's interesting to note that so far FB and Google haven't suffered massive data breaches.

Fundamentally, a company like Facebook does not want to do its users harm. They actively resist efforts by both the government and hackers to get their hands on these datasets.

I am very curious to hear if anyone has articulated a narrative by which the "dark side" of of the big data companies actually starts to cause harm to people. (I mean in a statistically significant way. There are bad outcomes for people that relate to the social network companies, but these tend to one-off."

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#176
post #123

In computer security, every time machines become fast enough to breach the limits of an algorithm we invent something new so that “hard” problems remain “hard” and therefore encryption is still secure. There has been no corresponding increase in the difficulty of invading privacy. 30 years ago, even though you probably “could” observe somebody for a long time and eventually connect some dots about them, it would not…

I would love if someone made a Chrome extension that encrypted all the posts and messages you put on Facebook. That is, any post you made would be made as a ciphertext, the extension would swap keys with all your friends in the background, and would decrypt their posts when displaying them to you. Sure Marky Mark still sees when you post, who you send messages to, etc. but it's a much better situation than what's goi…

This is Firefox only, but have a look at facecloak.

https://crysp.uwaterloo.ca/software/facecloak/

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#177
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unethical: lacking moral principles. Moral: of, relating to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong I think it is "clearly wrong" that Facebook creates shadow profiles, because it is violating the freedom of people who have not signed up for their service, in the same way that it is clearly wrong for me to take away your favorite pet for ritualistic sacri…

Well, your moral principles are very different from mine. I don't feel like I (or the state) should have a say about what goes on inside of Facebook's servers, they can do whatever they want with the information they have as long as the don't use coercion (to me, freedom is the lack of coercion). That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it, we must educate people, w…

> they can do whatever they want with the information they have

What if they decide to publish online your computed profile? Maybe they know you better than yourself.

> as long as the don't use coercion

Isn't influence or suggestion a kind of coercion? Why do you think they spend so much resources on profiling everyone?

> That said, I do believe that there's a practical problem, but it's us that must try to solve it, we must educate people

My country used to have over 6000 people killed on roads out of about 60M people. The state tried to "educate" people about not driving while drunk, not driving fast, using seat belts, etc. But in the end, what actually worked was more policemen on the roads.

You say freedom is the lack of coercion but you fail to realize that you are coerced into being part of FB, and your only opt-out is drastic measures like using a blocker.

FB probably has more intelligence capabilities about mere people than any past or present intelligence agency of any country ever had. That raises a lot of questions, the first of them being to make sure that they don't use it against people.

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#178
post #22
post #4

The bigger problem for me is how facebook tracks and identifies even people who do not have a facebook account. They simply infer such a person exists from photograps, contacts and other one sided activity and can start to track that person, tie all this information together and then target them with ads even though they never signed up for Facebook. Such shadow profiles are a much larger problem to me than people wh…

Nothing will change until the law cracks down on this. The people who work on these systems are smart enough to comprehend the wider consequences, but they do it anyway because money. Without significant external pressure, there will always be a long line of engineers willing to dial their cognitive dissonance up to 11 and build software that is clearly unethical in exchange for a fat paycheck.

In the EU the law just did crack down on this with the new EU Data Protection Directive[1]. The DPD covers not only EU based companies, but also any company that provides services for EU citizens in the EU (so, Facebook, LinkedIn etc. are covered by this..but also e.g. your little weather app).

The new DPD is strict compared to previous regulation, but there are two parts of the directive that a particularly interesting:

- The Data Portability concept: A company covered by the DPD is required to deliver to the user all data the company has on the user, in a standardised format. That means Facebook now has to hand out all your data (information, pics, likes, posts,...) for you to use freely - also in other services. I think this in effect means you own your data. I'm excited to see the effect of this one.

- The right to be forgotten: A company is required to delete all data they have on a user, if the user requests. Actually, if the user invokes this right, the company is not allowed make public, store or process any data related to the user.

From what I hear in discussions between american colleagues, american companies have no clue whats about to hit them. I know there is a mild panic here in Denmark, and the DPD is the most talked about subject in IT at the moment - and we've always been rather anal with the privacy stuff (e.g. cookie-law).

Edit: Oh, I forgot the fun part; this gets a lot of attention due to the sizes of the fines companies get for not adhering to the directive. Fines are up to EUR 20.000.000 or 4% of the company's global annual revenue, whichever is higher. Facebook made USD27.638.000.000 in 2016, so thats a fine of USD1.105.520.000 for not playing nice.

(I posted this in reply to another post, but seems relevant here too)

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#179
There was an interesting article published on arxiv 10 days ago titled: Social Media-based Substance Use Prediction or as MITTechRev titled it: Your Facebook activity can reveal whether you are a substance abuser..

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/607943/how-data-mining-fa...

https://arxiv.org/abs/1705.05633

Re: Facebook's tentacles reach further than people think

#180
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP desired to keep his Google associated email and non Google associated phone number separate, and behaved as such. That's a very reasonable thing to want and do. But Google used OP's friend's phone, bought from them, to surreptitiously acquire the connection between his email address and phone number. That was against OP's desire, and his friend never explicitly agreed to provide that information. I fully understan…

Oh, yes, I missed a sentence: "Which I guess means that Google now also connected that phone number to the mail address/Google account." So I suppose freeflight's concern is what information the friend gave to Google, not what Google gave to the friend or what the friend's phone is displaying to onlookers. This is how cloud services work. Google stores the friend's contact data, which has a contact with both freeflig…

> This is how cloud services work.

> what would it take for you to be comfortable?

Not OP, but: it would take for cloud services not to work this way. Regardless of whether Google is going to do anything with this data, the fact that tech-literate people aren't able to prevent just this from happening even when trying really hard makes one wonder how any one could avoid anything.

Post reply on HN