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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#121

Post by Danihan »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #4

Is this what got Amit Singhal in the first place, perhaps? (EDIT: I guess not, he left fifteen months ago, this list is eight months old.) It's briefly mentioned in this article, but I was shocked less people talked about what the Amit Singhal story meant for Google. That one of their most senior executives, who at one point rewrote the entire Google Search engine, when that was possible for one person to do, and wor…

>It's hard to imagine he suddenly started harassing women sixteen years in

Why?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#122

Post by anothercomment »

sumeno wrote: post #119
Danihan wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention how many liberals take smug joy in mocking Trump's skin tone, without the least bit of irony..

The US doesn't have a long history of oppressing people who use fake tan sprays so the two really aren't comparable.

What about people with red hair? I think they have a history of being bullied?

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#123

Post by Danihan »

sumeno wrote: post #119
Danihan wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention how many liberals take smug joy in mocking Trump's skin tone, without the least bit of irony..

The US doesn't have a long history of oppressing people who use fake tan sprays so the two really aren't comparable.

... He just had a tan from tanning / being in Florida.

http://www.marieclaire.com/politics/news/a26621/donald-trump...

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#124

Post by jlebar »

zghst wrote: post #108
jlebar wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taken (very) broadly, I agree. A list like this shifts a burden onto those of us who have privilege, as we're now aware of the bad shit that goes down around us that before we might never have seen. Hopefully it makes us uncomfortable enough to change our actions, thus obviating the need for this discomfort at all.

It is natural that we want to take from those who have and give it to those who have not. Whether it economical benefit, experiences, or knowledge. But in this case, I am unconvinced that scaling these experiences in this environment is a healing force. I think there is a missing piece here and one organization alone will not produce the best solution.

> I am unconvinced that scaling these experiences in this environment is a healing force.

You might be right. But I think that's a limited point.

Mistreatment of women and minorities is as old as time. All that's changed here is that they're talking about it in a public forum.

Maybe that helps heal things (I tend to think it does, by way of raising awareness), maybe, as you say, it doesn't help. Maybe it even hurts.

But I am not about to tell victims how to deal with their own pain.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#125

Post by jaclaz »

DanBC wrote: post #32
jaclaz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... or it was simply misunderstood/taken the "wrong" way by someone particularly touchy. I can understand most of the listed complains, but both the "princess" reference and the one about the hairdressers sending supposedly racists code messages sound more like if some problems are also somehow with the people that complained.

> by someone particularly touchy. No. It's okay to say this to someone you know well and who you know won't mind. But the default position is "don't say this", and so the people who have a strong negative response to it are not "particularly touchy", they're normal.

I agree on the "default position", though I cannot see anything so inappropriate to justify a HR call or a complain to the (official or unofficial) company list, at the very most a comment like that could have provoked some snappy response and an immediate - on the spot - clarification between the parties, at least between "normal" (adult) people. That would be a "normal" reaction as I see it, saying nothing then writing to the list a complain seems to me like the act of someone that either has experienced much more serious "name calling" (or some other untold offence) or that is a tad bit oversensitive.

Most probably normality - like beauty - is in the eye of the beholder.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#126

Post by cjslep »

anothercomment wrote: post #107
cjslep wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

And Trump was called Hitler, Idiot, Psychopath and all sorts of other things. Presidents simply attract some amount of hatred.

Yes, to take your point further: instead of any of those names, for Obama people chose a racial slur. They could have just as easily used Hitler, Idiot, Psycopath. That would have been a better test of whether our society was in some post-race society that people think we're in just because we got one black president, once.

If that doesn't make you stop and think, I'm really not sure what else will.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#127

Post by sumeno »

Danihan wrote: post #123
sumeno wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US doesn't have a long history of oppressing people who use fake tan sprays so the two really aren't comparable.

... He just had a tan from tanning / being in Florida. http://www.marieclaire.com/politics/news/a26621/donald-trump...

OK? The US doesn't have a history of oppressing white people with tans either

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#128

Post by nradov »

zghst wrote: post #96
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

It doesn't matter that the complaints are anonymous. The ultimate end result of this produces anxiety, even if action is taken. It is passive violence on a mass scale instead of healing occurring in one place. People should not want every fracture or trespass humming in the background to remind us. We should be moving on, dedicating our focus on being better people, achieving new heights, real things that progress us…

You seem to be confused. Written words are not violence.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#129

Post by dagenleg »

icc97 wrote: post #95
dagenleg wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how submissions are anonymous. Back in USSR an anonymous tip was a good way of getting rid of your annoying neighbours or rivals. Another convenient thing was that with an anonymous complaint the burden of proof lay solely on the accused, who had to protest his innocence without even being able to face the accuser. But we are half-way there anyway, aren't we?

As has been mentioned elsewhere - names aren't mentioned in the list. Also even with anonymity although such a system maybe open for abuse, so that people can implicate innocent people, the potential to allow actual victims to speak up who wouldn't otherwise seems worth the risk

This reminds me of the whole metadata collection scandal/argument, because this is what is being shared - metadata. Just because you don't name a person directly, does not yet imply anonymity.

Another observation - the article states that people aren't "usually" named. I don't see anything preventing the peoples names appearing later on, as this thing develops.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#130

Post by shidoshi »

anothercomment wrote: post #109
shidoshi wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, no. You manage to expectations while the person is capable of performing their duties. Using your logic is exactly why women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level. We all assume Google is a very wise and smart corporation, so let's assume that bonus, RSUs, and all discretionary income is proportional to time worked. That's how you solve the "you…

"women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level." That is not the case, the gender pay gap does not compare salaries for equal job positions and qualifications.

Yes, the prevalence of studies that report averages are what you are referencing--though you don't provide any. But, there are plenty of anecdotes (e.g. the several Google Sheets pay experiments folks have run) showing disparity. I am a sample of one, but I have seen this disparity--and, worked to fix it--with folks I've managed over the years as well. So, I do not agree with absolutes like "that is not the case."
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