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At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

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Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#101

Post by cjslep »

whitemale wrote: post #94
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

> privileged white men like myself The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. The current Chancellor of Germany happens to be a women, which is the most privileged positions in Europe. I'm also sure that you will find a lot of white men who lack anything that can be considered privilege. > why people might submit anonymously to such a lis…

> The former president of the US was a bkack man

...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER".

Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well.

I don't see non-white people oppressing white people because Trump is in power, calling them/him a "cracker" or other slurs, on the same continuous intensity. Which is a good indication that society is still skewed.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#102

Post by jschwartzi »

HarryHirsch wrote: post #28
jschwartzi wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you don't necessarily need to involve the police every time you're trying to set an interpersonal boundary. Most people are well adjusted enough to change their behavior when you ask them to, and you don't need the threat of firing or jail to convince these people. You just need to ask them, nicely but assertively, to stop.

When you post to the mailing list it's obviously gone past the "assert-boundaries" point, because you tried that already. Nicely but assertively is a problem with unreasonable supervisors in an "at will" state and a weak labour market.

The mailing list isn't just for calling out your supervisors, and the article implies that the managers of the list do give people the chance to respond. It sounds less like a way to anonymously out inappropriate or offensive behavior and more like a way to give examples after the behavior has already been dealt with.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#103

Post by jlebar »

zghst wrote: post #96
jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

It doesn't matter that the complaints are anonymous. The ultimate end result of this produces anxiety, even if action is taken. It is passive violence on a mass scale instead of healing occurring in one place. People should not want every fracture or trespass humming in the background to remind us. We should be moving on, dedicating our focus on being better people, achieving new heights, real things that progress us…

Taken (very) broadly, I agree. A list like this shifts a burden onto those of us who have privilege, as we're now aware of the bad shit that goes down around us that before we might never have seen.

Hopefully it makes us uncomfortable enough to change our actions, thus obviating the need for this discomfort at all.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#104

Post by arethuza »

Chris2048 wrote: post #61
arethuza wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Princess" in the UK at least would be pretty offensive in that context - I wouldn't dream of calling a colleague that.

No it wouldn't. Try spending some time further up north.

I'm in Scotland :-)

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#105

Post by jschwartzi »

axlprose wrote: post #69
ant6n wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I would prefer a more professional work environment, even if it's less funny.

Unfortunately, the problem with "professional" relationships is that they're not very good at fulfilling the social needs of humans. It's practical to keep things professional in order to avoid drama, but when you work all day and work is the main place you get to interact with other people, it can get a bit depressing. And this is partially the reason why things like "company culture" and "culture-fit" come about, b…

Yes. I don't really fit in at places where I don't have some kind of personal relationship with my co-workers. We don't stand in front of the whole office and make fun of each other, but when we're at lunch or in private we do play a little. Expecting people to robotically conform to an idealized notion of "professionalism" creates sterile workplaces. You spend enough time with someone and you will eventually become friends with them, co-worker or not.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#106

Post by anothercomment »

jlebar wrote: post #78

I'm sad to see so many comments here worrying about such a list becoming "weaponized". TFA says that the list is anonymous, and that "usually, the people in the complaints are not named" (the cited exception being naming Eric Schmidt, the CEO, for behavior during a large company meeting). You're not going to publicly shame someone without naming them, so clearly that's not the intent or effect. The point of the list,…

I would guess most subscribers simply like gossip and watching train wrecks.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#107

Post by anothercomment »

cjslep wrote: post #101
whitemale wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> privileged white men like myself The former president of the US was a black man, he was arguably in one of the most privileged positions in the US / World. The current Chancellor of Germany happens to be a women, which is the most privileged positions in Europe. I'm also sure that you will find a lot of white men who lack anything that can be considered privilege. > why people might submit anonymously to such a lis…

> The former president of the US was a bkack man ...and when he was reelected president, the Free Expression tunnel at NC State was spray painted with the confederate battle flag background, his "Hope" pose portrait, and in huge bold black letters the word "NIGGER". Racism and systemic oppression didn't get solved just because you can cherrypick examples well. I don't see non-white people oppressing white people beca…

And Trump was called Hitler, Idiot, Psychopath and all sorts of other things. Presidents simply attract some amount of hatred.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#108

Post by zghst »

jlebar wrote: post #103
zghst wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter that the complaints are anonymous. The ultimate end result of this produces anxiety, even if action is taken. It is passive violence on a mass scale instead of healing occurring in one place. People should not want every fracture or trespass humming in the background to remind us. We should be moving on, dedicating our focus on being better people, achieving new heights, real things that progress us…

Taken (very) broadly, I agree. A list like this shifts a burden onto those of us who have privilege, as we're now aware of the bad shit that goes down around us that before we might never have seen. Hopefully it makes us uncomfortable enough to change our actions, thus obviating the need for this discomfort at all.

It is natural that we want to take from those who have and give it to those who have not. Whether it economical benefit, experiences, or knowledge.

But in this case, I am unconvinced that scaling these experiences in this environment is a healing force. I think there is a missing piece here and one organization alone will not produce the best solution.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#109

Post by anothercomment »

shidoshi wrote: post #58
nxc18 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get why there should be protection for people on paternity leave. At the same time, if you're using an 'expectations' system appropriately and honestly (as opposed to just a renaming of some other scale) it may be dishonest to not change his rating. If there is an expectation about performance and it wasn't exceeded (how could you exceed your typical performance while on paternity leave?) then the employee shouldn'…

Yeah, no. You manage to expectations while the person is capable of performing their duties. Using your logic is exactly why women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level. We all assume Google is a very wise and smart corporation, so let's assume that bonus, RSUs, and all discretionary income is proportional to time worked. That's how you solve the "you…

"women suffer the indignation of being paid $0.77 to every man's dollar of equal functional qualification level."

That is not the case, the gender pay gap does not compare salaries for equal job positions and qualifications.

Re: At Google, an Employee-Run Email List Tracks Harassment and Bias Complaints

#110

Post by dalore »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #7

I feel this might be problematic. The Soviet block countries had something called a culture of criticism and self-criticism. As part of this culture, factories would orchestrate meetings in which people who ran afoul of party management were publicly humiliated by their colleagues and ostracized. What's wrong with simply firing people who are implicated in harassment and possibly reporting them to law enforcement?

Isn't there that famous quote "Praise in public criticize in private."?

Seems apt here.

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