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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#171

Post by drspacemonkey »

smogcutter wrote: post #153

Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with comp…

Do you happen to have a link to the LA Times series to which you're referring?

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#172

Post by illumin8 »

prbuckley wrote: post #59
kogepathic wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

You know who cares about these addicts, their families, who are the voting constituents of these politicians. The heroin epidemic is the worst in many traditionally republican states. I think you may find there is more bipartisan support for fixing the heroin problem than there is consensus around hot button topics like abortion.

Ironically, the AHCA would significantly cut spending on drug rehabilitation programs. So, basically, the GOP are telling their constituents they are going to help them, and then passing legislation that does the opposite. It doesn't surprise me at all. They are in the pockets of big pharma and big healthcare.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#173

Post by simonswords82 »

meddlepal wrote: post #6
diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

Please watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8yYJ_oV6xk (Retired Police Captain demolishes the War on Drugs)

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#174

Post by maxxxxx »

senorjazz wrote: post #107
maxxxxx wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it." Prosecuting and jailing drug addicts costs a lot of money. You could move that money to treatment.

> "Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? The state should pay as part of the universal health care coverage IMO. Treatment as a cost is cheap. Heroin would be next to nothing to purchase by a government. They can be tapered off or in very serious cases just maintained. When life is no longer 24x7 about finding your next fix, the person can live a relative useful and productive life. They do not need t…

No idea why this got downvoted. Because of "universal health care"? The prison system is already universal health care for mental patients and for drug addicts.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#175

Post by smogcutter »

drspacemonkey wrote: post #171
smogcutter wrote: post #153

Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with comp…

Do you happen to have a link to the LA Times series to which you're referring?

I'm thinking of this in particular: http://www.latimes.com/projects/oxycontin-part1/

EDIT: also I want to be clear that I don't think journalists are sitting at their desks saying "Uh oh, white people are in trouble! Sound the alarm!". This is great coverage, and it's a complicated issue.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#176

Post by vitaminbandit »

dave_sullivan wrote: post #162
vitaminbandit wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I [would like to] agree that people have the right to put whatever they want into their own bodies, we cannot deny that there are negative societal externalities caused by individual addictions. Everything ranging from something as abstract as an increase in national healthcare spending to something as palpable as coming home to find that your house has been burglarized by addicts.

I think all of the issues that cause drug addicts to be expensive or harmful to society are externalities of the war on drugs. For your two examples: Increased healthcare spend: But why don't we draw a line for alcohol and tobacco? Or people eating too much? All of these are legally sanctioned choices people make. It gets into slippery territory when you start telling people what they can or can't do because of the b…

I think you've made some excellent points, but you can't simultaneously deny the existence of negative societal externalities caused by individual drug use while acknowledging that the usage of drugs (including alcohol, tobacco, and excessive eating) imposes a cost onto society in the form of [just one example] increased healthcare spending.

I think my particular stance is that the war on drugs is a massive failure that props up prices, lowers quality, and destroys the lives of many young non-violent "offenders." This is probably quite similar to your position, but I think the primary difference is that I would not advocate lifting the prohibition against drugs like heroin, which can supposedly turn a person into an addict within a few sessions.

I think my position is ultimately something like this:

Should the state lock someone up for using heroin? No, it's their money and their body.

Should the state lock someone up for using heroin and then committing a crime? Yes, because of the crime.

Would the legalization of heroin cause an increase in number of people committing crimes? Yes, because of its addictive potential and the extremely difficult/potentially fatal withdrawals.

Whether or not that would actually be the case, I can't say.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#177

Post by diogenescynic »

meddlepal wrote: post #6
diogenescynic wrote: post #3

The drug war has failed. Legalize all drugs and tax them. Spend the tax money on rehab, schools, and public universities. We are just propping up drug lords in Latin America to feed our insatiable demand for drugs.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

>How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions?

It doesn't directly, but instead of ineffectively spending billions on law enforcement and incarceration you could use that money and the new tax revenue to fund treatment and prevention programs.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#178

Post by logfromblammo »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #151
logfromblammo wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because a person who uses rational thought based on evidence will be for decriminalizing recreational drug use, whereas society as a whole still works on emotion, rumor, cognitive dissonance, rhetoric, mendacity, and prevarication. I actually hope to see the day when cannabis is more legal than tobacco cigarettes. When cannabis starts piling up the corpses, it can then be made as legal.

But OP didn't say decriminalizing recreational drug use; he said "legalizing all drugs".

Can you elaborate on how you perceive the two phrases to differ in their meanings?

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#179

Post by dismantlethesun »

Larrikin wrote: post #161
senorjazz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

>Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing. I noticed this when I got my wisdom teeth taken out in Japan. Typically in America, they knock you out and remove all four at once and give you powerful drugs after the…

I did it in the USA and it was all local anesthesia. I had a hard time even finding someone who would offer general anethesia.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#180

Post by pavel_lishin »

logfromblammo wrote: post #178
pavel_lishin wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But OP didn't say decriminalizing recreational drug use; he said "legalizing all drugs".

Can you elaborate on how you perceive the two phrases to differ in their meanings?

To me, decriminalization of personal use means that I can smoke weed, or maybe even meth or shoot heroin, and not be punished for it. This would minimize the harms that come directly from the government enforcing drug policy, for something that typically is not going to hurt anyone but myself.

Whereas legalizing it would mean that I'm free to manufacture meth and heroin and market it, and sell it to others; I would still have an incentive to use some drugs' inherently and biologically addictive nature to profit myself at the expense of others.

I specifically say "inherently and biologically" because many things are addictive to a degree - alcohol, tobacco, video games, in-game purchases, gambling - and any of them can ruin some person's life. But they don't appear to be as universally addictive as, say, heroin or meth, which can have terrible repercussions even if you stop using them. It's a difference of degree, but it's a significant one, and I want to head off at the pass any argument that selling meth to my neighbors is no different than selling them sugary soda or cookie-clicker clones.

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