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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#111

Post by stronglikedan »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #68
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

Can't speak for OP, but in a more general sense, society as a whole will never be ready for some things that some individuals are for. That's why we (America) are a nation of laws, not of man. There will always be someone who doesn't like you, or what you do, or what you stand for, simply because it's all subjective.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#112

Post by jostmey »

Isn't it possible to create poison genes using CRISPR that are always dominant and will lead to a species extinction?

Why not apply this technology to completely eliminate Opioid plants?

P.S. I am sure there are many reasons why this won't work, but let's think big, okay?

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#113

Post by jjawssd »

koolba wrote: post #108
chris_7 wrote: post #104

Heroin, LSD, etc. use really doesn't affect me. I don't care if people use it, and don't want the government to waste money fighting it or whatever they do. I don't care if people manufacture it, as long as they follow all the usual regulations for dangerous chemical plants (like, don't have one in an apartment building). Anyone should be able to grow weed wherever they'd grow lettuce or whatever, no danger there. I…

I don't recall any incidents of junkies robbing people to buy a pack of Marlboros.

Junkies wouldn't need to rob people of as many things if these drugs were cheap as dirt

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#114

Post by hbosch »

slapshot wrote: post #81
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised. The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped…

Is there an easy way to collect and cross reference opioid deaths in non-prohibitive states? You seem familiar with the problem and the data - is Colorado's rate of overdose increase proportional to that of places like West Virginia, for instance?

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#115

Post by pavel_lishin »

senorjazz wrote: post #102
pavel_lishin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

>>why are you for it? Because there is no other solution. None. The drug war has been a complete and utter failure from the viewpoint of society (those who have profited may disagree, but I hope we can agree their views can be ignored). IT has ruined lives, brought misery and suffering to many, all but destroyed some countries, helped wars continue long after they would have otherwise, unfairly targeted minorities. A…

Ending the War on Drugs is not the same thing as legalizing all drugs. There are ways to fight addiction to things like methamphetamines and heroin without declaring all victims as the enemy.

We should absolutely change how we deal with drugs and addition, but I'm not convinced that straight legalizing things like meth is the right approach, either.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#116

Post by dave_sullivan »

FireBeyond wrote: post #105
dave_sullivan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? It doesn't. It's partly an acknowledgement that, "It's really none of your business what people put in their own bodies." You're implicitly saying, "I don't like the fact that you are addicted to X substance or action Y, so I think that gives me the moral justification to lock you in a literal cage for a very long time." Legalizing drugs is about not putting people in j…

> Btw, ever wonder how much fentanyl it takes to kill you vs the amount of heroin? https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/29/fentanyl-heroin-photo-fa... . That's what's driving the huge number of deaths from "heroin". Fentanyl is definitely a problem, but you can't point just to potency and say "this is why". Fentanyl is much more potent than most other painkillers, but it's also more expensive. 5 patches of 12 hour releas…

Mmmm, I'm not following your point.

I'm saying "If you cut a big bag of heroin with an amount of fentanyl in the correct ratio to not kill you, and shake it all up, you can't be very certain that the correct ratios are being evenly distributed. Therefore, when you split it all up into much smaller quantities, the ratio of fentanyl to heroin will vary." That's creating a situation where you really don't know what you're getting. I'm pointing to that as "this is what's driving heroin deaths".

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#117

Post by lottin »

krapp wrote: post #71
ada1981 wrote: post #31

Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Invest all profits in the following: 1) Ensuring all children have an attuned attachment figure / parents have free (or even incentivized) training to learn how to attune emotionally. 2) Psychedelic therapy centers to help heal the underlying addiction along with support and integration. 3) Community gardens / organic food production & affordabl…

> Legalize and tax/regulate production, purity, etc. Outlaw all marketing. Why outlaw marketing? If all drugs are legal and regulated, there should be no issue with advertising them like any other legal and regulated product. The US already allows advertising for pharmaceuticals, it should allow advertising for every other drug. And why should drug companies have to invest their profits in the programs you describe?…

Ideally you would put a Pigouvian tax on heroin in order to make up for all the harm done to non-consumers resulting from heroin use. Most heroin users wouldn't be able to afford heroin if you put such a tax. The only problem with this solution is that most heroin users tend to resort to crime if they can't afford to pay for the drug, so this really isn't a solution.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#118

Post by egwynn »

Digory wrote: post #62

Russ Roberts' Econtalk podcast had a stunningly good interview with Sam Quinones about the opioid epidemic. I am fairly libertarian on many things, but this is not a simple case of prohibition run amok. Heroin/opioid addiction is close to a loss of free will, aided by screw ups from big pharma and Government healthcare policies. Really fascinating, sad, and difficult stuff. http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/01/sa…

I think it’s rather generous of you to call them “screw ups” from big pharma.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#119

Post by mgce »

ep103 wrote: post #24
meddlepal wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? I understand it makes acquisition less taboo, and perhaps makes treatment a less taboo subject too, but it's not like legalization is a pancea for addiction. Booze is legal and we still have a massive alcoholism problem.

tl;dr: To put it one last way: if drugs were legal, the pharmaceutical industry would be free to iterate on making recreational drugs, that don't have the drawbacks of the things people currently make in back alleys. The taboo truth is people do drugs because they are fun, and people want the drugs that are fun to do, and don't have negative health consequences. Many drugs are relatively safe to do (in small quantiti…

> The taboo truth is people do drugs because they are fun

I don't agree with this.

This is true for some cases, yes. But it's just as common if not more common for people to take drugs to mask pain. It's not about the drug being fun, but about the overwhelming pain of life being temporarily numbed.

Some drugs start off as fun before becoming something more severe. Others are never fun - they're just coping mechanisms.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#120

Post by logfromblammo »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #68
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

Because a person who uses rational thought based on evidence will be for decriminalizing recreational drug use, whereas society as a whole still works on emotion, rumor, cognitive dissonance, rhetoric, mendacity, and prevarication.

I actually hope to see the day when cannabis is more legal than tobacco cigarettes. When cannabis starts piling up the corpses, it can then be made as legal.

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