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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#81

Post by slapshot »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem

Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised.

The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for.

In 2015, opioid overdoses in Colorado continued to increase at the same rate as prior to legalization of marijuana. That year, opioid overdoses killed more Coloradans than homicide. [0]

In 2016, the total number of opioid deaths dropped 6%, but the number of heroin overdoses continued to increase. [1]

Personal experience in Portland Oregon suggests that in that city, legal marijuana has not made a dent in the meth and heroin issues that are still affecting the city.

Maybe recreational marijuana laws have helped. Nothing in this data can disprove that maybe more people would have died without it. But it hasn't been a magic bullet. It hasn't yet gone "a long way to" solving the problem of heroin overuse.

[FWIW, I'm in favor of recreational marijuana legalization, but the problems of heroin have different roots and we can't expect legal marijuana to immediately solve those issues.]

[0] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/01/03/colorado-opioid-heroin-...

[1] http://www.denverpost.com/2017/03/07/colorado-opioid-heroin-...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#82

Post by egwynn »

I generally hear people saying two things:

1. “The gov't isn’t/wasn’t able to competently police big pharma, so addiction will only get worse if we legalize drugs.”

2. “The gov’t is policing citizens too much, so addicts’ lives will get ruined if we don’t legalize drugs.”

I’d like everyone to consider the very real possibility that we’ll need to fix both problems before we reach a good place.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#83

Post by knownothing »

tyingq wrote: post #61
knownothing wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The poppies used for heroin production can be grown in South America but most of it comes from Asia.

That's not what I see looking at reasonable sources. See https://www.unodc.org/documents/wdr2015/World_Drug_Report_20... for example. The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd. Canada, for example, gets most of it's heroin via Afghanistan. The size of the lines in this map from the abov…

It does seem that most heroin consumed in the US originates in Mexico currently. However it is true that Afghanistan helps supply most (as in > The vast majority of worldwide poppy for opiates is Asia, but the US is unique in that most of the poppy source for their heroin is coming from Columbia and Mexico. It is odd.

I think this is a signal that Mexican cartels have monopolized American markets. Smaller unaffiliated players are more likely to use trans-Pacific supply chains.

It also seems that the cartels have vertically integrated their operations such that they now grow opium poppies and aren't reliant on South American countries for raw materials.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#84

Post by ridgeguy »

madengr wrote: post #46

So is there anything stronger than carfentanil?

Not clear. I seem to remember reading of a stronger fentanyl derivative within the last month or so, but can't immediately find the reference.

If you're interested in the status of fentanyl and its derivatives, as well as the directions being explored for their pharmaceutical use, here's a well-written, chemistry-heavy article [1]. Not paywalled.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4137794/pdf/nih...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#85

Post by refurb »

DanBC wrote: post #35
klibertp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that legal drugs will cause harm. The GP specifically said to "tax them and spend the money on rehab and education", so I assume he did recognize this.

That approach doesn't seem to have worked so well for alcohol.

Compared to what? During prohibition? I'd say things are much better now than then.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#86

Post by SCAQTony »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

Pot would alleviate much of the heroin problem but with great advantages comes equal disadvantages. I suspect we will see these issues soon.

Point number two: Marijuana is addictive and individuals with marijuana addiction entering voluntary rehab is increasing:(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2797098/)

Theory: The reason one does not get physical withdraws is that it is oil based, stored in the fat and slowly dissipates in about 2-weeks or so whereas heroin is water soluble and leaves the body within 24-hours...

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#87

Post by klibertp »

DanBC wrote: post #35
klibertp wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that legal drugs will cause harm. The GP specifically said to "tax them and spend the money on rehab and education", so I assume he did recognize this.

That approach doesn't seem to have worked so well for alcohol.

I'm not sure. From what I've read it worked quite well in Scandinavian countries. For example, Norway, while consuming approximately the same amount of alcohol (with a slight upwards tendency, but with spirits usage going down in favor of wine), has had 20 years of non-stop reduction of deaths related to alcohol usage from 1980-2001 (http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/norway.pd...). That, to an outsider like me, suggests that they have something that works, although I don't know exactly what it is.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#88

Post by sosuke »

weeksie wrote: post #22

Maybe I'm crazy but I feel like the US goes on this uppers/downers cycle. Of course I'm probably seeing patterns where there are none, but we had heroin in the seventies, cocaine/crack in the eighties, heroin was back in the 90s, meth in the 00s, heroin in the teens.

I'm just pulling ideas out of thin air but I wonder if it connected with how good the economy is doing for the people buying drugs.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#89

Post by maxxxxx »

kogepathic wrote: post #41
mmjaa wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization doesn't fix addiction. It fixes the sub-culture, the underground, the dark layers in society where addicts lurk in order to be able to continue their addiction. Legalization brings these people into society, by removing the stigma associated with drug use, and makes it less of a problem to be swept under the rug. It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Right…

> It makes it easier to contact addicts and get them into effective treatment programs. Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it. You're talking about a country where a major political party actively works to remove funds from women's healthcare. [0] I fully agree that these substances should be legalised for the reasons you mentioned, but I think…

"Who do you expect will fund these treatment programs? I seriously doubt most addicts are equipped to pay for it."

Prosecuting and jailing drug addicts costs a lot of money. You could move that money to treatment.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#90

Post by throwaway2016a »

Zak wrote: post #80
pavel_lishin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm actually for legalizing all drugs like several other posters but I don't think society is ready for that. If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? (fwiw, I'm with you on marijuana, and hope to see the day when it's as legal as cigarettes - but people have been optimistic about marijuana for decades :/)

> If society isn't ready for that, why are you for it? Not OP, but I think this means that it isn't a mainstream enough idea to get traction, and that it might be political suicide for an elected official to suggest it, not that society is ill-equipped to handle it if it did happen. I share this position. I think it's a good idea to legalize most drugs, but I think actively working toward legalizing drugs other than…

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I meant.
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