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The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

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Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#161

Post by Larrikin »

senorjazz wrote: post #93
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

>Part of the problem IMO based on speaking to various people from various countries, the US is just far too happy to prescribe strong medication (generalisation I know but still) whereas for the same ailments in other countries you would get nothing.

I noticed this when I got my wisdom teeth taken out in Japan. Typically in America, they knock you out and remove all four at once and give you powerful drugs after the procedure to help with the pain. When I got the procedure done in Japan I was originally scheduled to have four separate procedures, until I complained and even then it was moved down to two, one for each side of my mouth. The anesthesia was local and the drugs I got were extremely light. I was definitely in pain way longer than friends who got the procedure, but it was bearable and ultimately I think I'm better off for not being described a hard opioid.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#162

Post by dave_sullivan »

vitaminbandit wrote: post #133
dave_sullivan wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does legalizing fix or reduce addictions? It doesn't. It's partly an acknowledgement that, "It's really none of your business what people put in their own bodies." You're implicitly saying, "I don't like the fact that you are addicted to X substance or action Y, so I think that gives me the moral justification to lock you in a literal cage for a very long time." Legalizing drugs is about not putting people in j…

While I [would like to] agree that people have the right to put whatever they want into their own bodies, we cannot deny that there are negative societal externalities caused by individual addictions. Everything ranging from something as abstract as an increase in national healthcare spending to something as palpable as coming home to find that your house has been burglarized by addicts.

I think all of the issues that cause drug addicts to be expensive or harmful to society are externalities of the war on drugs. For your two examples:

Increased healthcare spend: But why don't we draw a line for alcohol and tobacco? Or people eating too much? All of these are legally sanctioned choices people make. It gets into slippery territory when you start telling people what they can or can't do because of the burden they'll place on the healthcare system. Slippery territory that leads to the situation we currently have.

People stealing your tv: Spend less money on chasing and locking up drug users and more money on chasing and locking up burglars. Also, if we're just talking about simple economics here, the cost of supplying the entire world with high quality, low price drugs would not be terribly high. It's like, "How many homeless alcoholics are robbing homes because they can't find a drink?" That could be paired with a general public education campaign about the realities of drugs (I mean, Trainspotting and Leaving Las Vegas are kind of about the same thing right?)

So I deny that there are negative societal externalities. I'll make an exception for the fact that families pretty much literally lose loved ones to addiction, and that's a pretty big one, but I think it gets into the kind of territory of "do you owe your family anything?" I would say no, if you want to throw away your life to drugs, that's not the state's business.

And again, I'm really not advocating anyone start doing any of these things, I'm advocating that the state stop locking people up for doing them. In order for that to happen, it requires a certain amount of acceptance.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#163

Post by baldfat »

smogcutter wrote: post #153

Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with comp…

I agree with your point 100% BUT there is one point to be made. Prosecute the Pharm Execs, Doctors who broke the law.

There is a smoking gun! Look at West Virginia and the pills that were prescribed. I am talking about 780,000,000 pain meds. In a state of 1.84 million residents, the shipments amount to 433 pain pills for every man, woman and child in West Virginia.

The death toll for this 5 year time between 2007-2012 is 1,728 West Virginians died from overdoses of hydrocodone and oxycodone.

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Drug-Wholesalers-Shi...

So you are 100% right about public perception. I live in a large city in PA and my In-laws come to visit from W.Va and I always tell them I see more people high in W.Va then in my Center City neighborhood and they always roll their eyes like I am crazy.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#164

Post by baldfat »

throwaway2016a wrote: post #99
slapshot wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised. The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped…

> The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped for. I didn't say "sudden". I think it would take time. Addiction doesn't happen overnight. I am open minded and I am not going to ignore research if the research doesn't support my view. But my hunch is, it is too soon or too much damage has already been done and we need to take other steps to reduce usage not just legalization. Inc…

When ANYTHING is used to escape from emotional pain be it heroin, pot or food it is wrong and causes problems.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#165

Post by throwaway2016a »

rch wrote: post #94
slapshot wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem Well, Colorado tried that. Recreational weed has been fully legal in Colorado since January 1, 2014. You can walk down any major street in Denver or Boulder and pass multiple outlets selling marijuana. And they've sold lots of it, according to the tax receipts raised. The result has not been the sudden reversal of opioid addiction that you had hoped…

I wouldn't take issue with your overall point, but the headline in your second link contradicts the article: As prescription opioid deaths drop 6 percent in Colorado, heroin deaths rise 23 percent vs. Overall, the total number of opiate deaths — meaning deaths from both prescription painkillers like fentanyl or from illegal opiates like heroin — fell by about 6 percent, from 472 deaths in 2015 to 442 deaths in 2016.

Also, as an aside, heroin and opioids aren't not automatically fatal so that number is a subset of users. An important number is not just deaths but also hospital visits and new users are important.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#166

Post by randyrand »

smogcutter wrote: post #153

Anyone else notice that a common theme in the recent wave of handwringing over heroin and opioid addiction is that the victims we're asked to consider with compassion and understanding are almost always white? The tough on crime drug war rhetoric disappears so easily when the victims are "regular people" who fell prey to the pharma industry, not "junkies". I'm not saying that we shouldn't treat these people with comp…

It's very simple, people are more compassionate to people similar to them. And it's obvious why - similarity makes it easier to see yourself in others' shoes.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#167

Post by snark42 »

senorjazz wrote: post #93
throwaway2016a wrote: post #44

This is probably pop psychology but it always struck me that if you legalize marijuana you go a long way to solving the problem. My thoughts are... 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids 2. It is nowhere near as addictive (possibly not addictive at all) 3. When people are already criminals (because they smoke weed) I think they are more l…

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

>> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids

> No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all.

Anecdotal evidence from working at cannabis dispensaries (and possibly some studies I've seen, but I'm not going to look 'em up.) suggest while you won't get off opiates for serious chronic pain, if you consume (usually edible) cannabis and opiates your dosage of the opiates can come down significantly and lead to better quality of life.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#168

Post by boomboomsubban »

eternalvision wrote: post #159
boomboomsubban wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really, marijuana withdrawals are fairly tame and many people don't even experiences those. At most, a couple of weeks of irritability, appetite issues, and problems sleeping. The psychological "withdrawal" can be much worse, but there is a whole range of regular things that can lead to those addictions. And it is often abused to hide other mental health issues, which can flare up while quitting.

You moved the goalposts. My response was to the claim of a "few" sleepless nights, which is far from the truth for the majority of long term regular users who quit. Instead, you said that there are, "at most, a couple weeks of" mild symptoms. This is simply not representative of the withdrawal scenario for long term heavy usage, both in duration and intensity. I've seen first hand mentally stable folks who quit smoki…

I moved the goalposts to "what our scientific research has found," not to some anecdotal evidence of a particularly bad psychological withdrawal someone you know had. That wasn't the drug's fault, and your friend could have done many innocuous tasks before sleep and had the same problems quitting.

Re: The Heroin Business Is Booming in America

#170

Post by thebigspacefuck »

snark42 wrote: post #167
senorjazz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. If you are just referring to a slight ache in your back in the morning, ok there is some research (clinical and anecdotal) that cannabis can be useful as as anti inflammatory. But you should not be get…

>> 1. It is reportedly a better pain killer in some cases than opioids so it keeps people off of the prescription opioids > No it isn't and no it won't. If you have serious pain issues, then cannabis will not help at all. Anecdotal evidence from working at cannabis dispensaries (and possibly some studies I've seen, but I'm not going to look 'em up.) suggest while you won't get off opiates for serious chronic pain, if…

I got vicodin for headaches once (not even bad headaches, just regular headaches), so it depends what kind of pain you're talking about.
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