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Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

blogs.law.harvard.edu

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Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#21

Post by rdtsc »

gaius wrote: post #16
younata wrote: post #7

Or, we just learn to be more frugal when it comes to higher education. It doesn't matter at all where I get my diploma from, I just need one to get anywhere. If I can manage to go to a public college and pay I have a good friend whose family is paying nothing for him to attend UCLA. Personally, I'm not so lucky/dilligent about applying for scholarships.

The value of a Harvard (or any elite college) education is not in what you learn but in the brand name. That is what people are willing to pay a fortune for. And the brand name does have a value associated with it - it cuts down on the friction of getting through the initial stages to an interview at which a hiring decision will be made, for example. Is this right or wrong? Well, if historically graduates from a cert…

In some fields the value should be better determined by one's previous work (the portfolio). That has traditionally been true for designers and artist for example, but today it should also be true for software developers.

There are so many open source projects that companies should be asked "what open source project have you contributed to?" and "show and explain that code to me".

Basically that is what got me my job. My GPA was high and I worked my butt off for 5 years to get it, but it was a small open source project that got noticed and used as the basis of selection.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#22

Post by sliverstorm »

houseabsolute wrote: post #20
sliverstorm wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the other article it was referencing? The basis of the argument was Mexicans have a life expectancy of 2 years less than Americans, but massively smaller health care bills. The stipulation is that the return we get (2 years more life) is actually smaller than the cost (in terms of time worked, stress, etc) to bring it about. In other words, you give up 4 years of your life to your work so you can live 2…

I did not read that article but I have read enough like it to know the general thrust of the argument. The ones I've read so far have hinged - on life-expectancy data that is measured differently -- sometimes substantially differently -- from country to country and - the probably false belief that Americans could continue to lead the same lifestyles they do now and still live about as long under a much smaller health…

> the probably false belief that Americans could continue to lead the same lifestyles they do now and still live about as long under a much smaller healthcare regime.

yes, leading the same lifestyles is the rub. Which is kind of annoying now that I think about it. The lifestyles of the masses essentially determines the kind of healthcare everybody else has to pay for. If my gaunt, ever-grumbling stomach is any kind of a sign, I'm going to spend my life resenting that our healthcare system doesn't fit me in the slightest.

I've always been a 'what you do on your own time is your own choice' sort of guy, but I learn more and more that other people make decisions that should be purely their own choice, but in reality impact me all the time, which is confusing my ethical system. You should be allowed to eat what and how you want, for example, but it's becoming clearer and clearer that can have a very real and measurable impact on everybody else.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#23

Post by houseabsolute »

sliverstorm wrote: post #22
houseabsolute wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did not read that article but I have read enough like it to know the general thrust of the argument. The ones I've read so far have hinged - on life-expectancy data that is measured differently -- sometimes substantially differently -- from country to country and - the probably false belief that Americans could continue to lead the same lifestyles they do now and still live about as long under a much smaller health…

> the probably false belief that Americans could continue to lead the same lifestyles they do now and still live about as long under a much smaller healthcare regime. yes, leading the same lifestyles is the rub. Which is kind of annoying now that I think about it. The lifestyles of the masses essentially determines the kind of healthcare everybody else has to pay for. If my gaunt, ever-grumbling stomach is any kind o…

I don't see any reason to be upset that a civilized society spends a large portion of its output on living longer. It seems to make sense that as the material goods and experiences we want become less expensive that we should start spending more of our money on increasing the time and comfort in which we can enjoy them.

With respect to people living bad lifestyles, you have three unappetizing options.

- Let them die.

- Force them to stop living bad lifestyles.

- Pay the price yourself for the bad lifestyles that others lead.

There isn't really a fourth way. Unless you believe that most people's bad lifestyle choices can be fixed through education or non-forceful conditioning. Which, if you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#24

Post by oliveoil »

How about an added value in a well educated person. Like he or she feels better about themselves, is more likely to contribute to society with things as art (or open source software) as well as more likely to succeed starting a new business and bring in even more of that MONEY.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#25

Post by gaius »

rdtsc wrote: post #21
gaius wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of a Harvard (or any elite college) education is not in what you learn but in the brand name. That is what people are willing to pay a fortune for. And the brand name does have a value associated with it - it cuts down on the friction of getting through the initial stages to an interview at which a hiring decision will be made, for example. Is this right or wrong? Well, if historically graduates from a cert…

In some fields the value should be better determined by one's previous work (the portfolio). That has traditionally been true for designers and artist for example, but today it should also be true for software developers. There are so many open source projects that companies should be asked "what open source project have you contributed to?" and "show and explain that code to me". Basically that is what got me my job…

I agree, and 5 years out of college no-one should care where you went, or at least, care very little compared to what you did in the meantime. But like I say, you don't get to see what happens behind the scenes. The truth is, it's human nature to seek out the pre-qualified, and all other things being equal (as they are with a fresh graduate) diploma + brand will always beat diploma alone.

It's interesting you mention open source. Sometimes I interview kids who claim x years experience and what they mean is, "I've been programming since I was 8 years old". Which is great but experience here means a) stuff you were paid to do or b) in a well-known open source package (e.g. Apache). The experience a company is interested in is experience not of coding but of "transforming a spec into a product".

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#26

Post by teaspoon »

Destruct1 wrote: post #19

a) He compares a 300k education over 4 yeards with an average master degree income. I have no idea about prices in the US but i would be very surprised if the decent, but not stellar schools have a 50k/year tuition (using 100k as living expenses). b) We have the same discussion in germany where universities are free. The general consensus about getting a degree seems to be that it is barely worth it (considering oppo…

The $300k includes opportunity cost. That means it's tuition plus living cost plus four years of whatever after-tax salary you can make with a high school degree.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#27

Post by gaius »

Destruct1 wrote: post #19

a) He compares a 300k education over 4 yeards with an average master degree income. I have no idea about prices in the US but i would be very surprised if the decent, but not stellar schools have a 50k/year tuition (using 100k as living expenses). b) We have the same discussion in germany where universities are free. The general consensus about getting a degree seems to be that it is barely worth it (considering oppo…

Interestingly I was in Berlin a few weeks ago, people I chatted to said the point of a degree was that you were covered by healthcare (?) while an undergrad, so it was normal to stretch a degree out as long as possible, into your 30s if you could.

I also learnt that Berlin is not at all like Frankfurt, where I've worked!

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#28

Post by teaspoon »

ilkhd2 wrote: post #2

Read the article. Visited link to Wikipedia article? Daymit, how you can SURVIVE on 35K a year in USA??? Maybe somewhere in Mississippi, but not in North USA. Still, you'll have to eat random crap from 7-11 and macdonalds...

Jason Rohrer is an American programmer whose family has annual expenses of less than $15k:

http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/jason-rohrer/supportMyWork...

From the sound of it, they're not living on Big Macs. But they do live an unconventional lifestyle and have made material sacrifices to minimize their consumption.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#29

Post by swombat »

pyre wrote: post #8
houseabsolute wrote: post #4

I can't take an article seriously that claims we'd be better off without doctors and hospitals. Whatever fallacy that's called, I'm definitely guilty.

He's showing that things are screwed up. We're spending too much on education for what we are getting in return. He's claiming that the system is wholly inefficient. He's just extending that to the health care system in that one-liner. More generally: "For the amount of money that we are putting into , we should be getting more value out of it."

The article is basically claiming that if a doctor earns $100k a year, and costs, say, $1m in funds to be able to complete his or her extended studies (that take many years), then creating that doctor is not a worthwhile investment for parents or for society.

That's wrong on so many levels that I won't even bother to argue with it.

Re: Greenspun: Let's stop investing in our kids

#30

Post by three14 »

houseabsolute wrote: post #12

The article pretends - That the current salaries of recent college graduates represent their probable average output over their lifetime. This is absurd for reasons that I hope I don't need to explain to all you startup founders. - That the salary of a graduate is a total representation of that person's value to society (and, transitively, of their education). This is wrong even if you think the total value of an edu…

You're right about the article itself, but you're missing the context. Greenspun has had a long series of nuggets of cynicism that make up most of his blog posts. Together, they paint a picture that gives more excuse for his cynicism.

- Public employees make up an ever growing percentage of the workforce, which still has to be paid for by the private sector.

- Many public employees have large unfunded pension obligations that are very hard to cut.

- As such, new graduates need to have lots of earning power to keep the whole country running.

- His experience with college graduates both in the computer field and the in the context of flight school and his reviews of curricula imply to him that students actually learn very little, and are no more prepared than non-U.S. students to generate lots of value.

- His exposure is mostly to Boston area students, who on average pay a lot for school, or someone else does via scholarships.

So I don't think he means the blog post literally, but in context he's just offering another data point that supports his thesis that the U.S. in economic trouble in the medium to long term.

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