Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

thelensnola.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–60 of 145 posts

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#51

Post by CodeWriter23 »

infosample wrote: post #47
CodeWriter23 wrote: post #28

Meh. My bestie has worked the county counsel office in two different counties. He told me it is standard practice for court clerks to hand out stacks of blank, pre-signed subpoenaes to any attorney, government or private practice. Of course the caveat is if you abuse them, there will be, trouble.

Breaking the law by those enforcing it is meh?

That's the reality of an overwhelmed court system, they make choices to optimize. It's a system of trust, balanced by a Judge reporting abusive attorneys to The Bar, which means most subpoenas are actually what a Judge would sign.

In the case of this Louisiana Prosecutor, it seems like perhaps the courts are so overwhelmed they can't even get stacks of pre-signed subpoenas so they write their own. And the article states that when said Prosecutor has been called on it, a Judge issues a real subpoena. So yeah, meh.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#52

Post by alphonsegaston »

rendall wrote: post #5
matt4077 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know the answer to your question, but let me just point out how awesome the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine is. There are very few countries where that idea is as much a force as it is in the US–it's theoretically possible, but courts often shy away from applying it. I think it's a testament to the integrity of the US court system that they routinely let people off the hook, even when it is proven that…

"... they routinely let people off the hook..." [citation needed]

This is why corporatized, "media as entertainment" culture in the US is so dangerous. In reality, we live under a regime of insane violence and mass incarceration compared to other developed countries. But because the distinction between news media and "Law and Order" episodes is blurred in the minds of average Americans, people think everyone is escaping justice on a clever technicality vs. being forced to plead guilty to crimes they either didn't commit or are in excess of their actual offense (what really happens).

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#53

Post by cryptarch »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

I think your views on police are mostly appicable in the U.S. because the U.S. has (one of) the most militarized police force(s) in the Western world.

Your views do not match my experience in the Netherlands at all. My largest irritation regarding Dutch police is that they seem incapable of helping with bike thefts (even though all bikes have a mandatory unique ID), and sometimes they give you a ticket for carefully biking over pedestrian ways (excellent shortcuts) or for biking without a light.

However, I do think your post contributed to the discussion because the advice seems coherent and accurate for U.S. citizens and anyone planning on visiting there.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#54

Post by wonderwonder »

matt4077 wrote: post #4
pizza wrote: post #2

Is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree applicable?

I don't know the answer to your question, but let me just point out how awesome the "Fruit of the Poisonous Tree" doctrine is. There are very few countries where that idea is as much a force as it is in the US–it's theoretically possible, but courts often shy away from applying it. I think it's a testament to the integrity of the US court system that they routinely let people off the hook, even when it is proven that…

The only people let go on a technicality are those that can afford a good attorney. People with a public defender will almost always plead out because their overworked and under paid attorney advises them too.

The public defenders have hundreds of clients a year and are often only able to provide each client with a day or so of attention.

If you are poor and accused of a crime odds are you are going to be found guilty. If you are rich and accused of a crime, odds are you have a good attorney who has the resources and connections to find that "technicality"

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#55

Post by NoGravitas »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #7
tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

> The police couldn't do anything but take this woman downtown. Her daughter protested, "THIS IS NOT WHY WE CALLED YOU", but the officers were like, "whatevers". If all you've got is a hammer, everything is a nail. Sounds like her daughter might have had incorrect expectations for what it entails to call the police, though, unfortunately. The purpose and function of calling the police is generally to bring lawful for…

> Any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that they may be arrested and taken to jail, regardless of your intentions when making the call.

Correct that to: any time you call the cops on somebody, it should be done with the expectation that someone may die, not necessarily the person you are calling the cops on. Maybe the situation is bad enough that that's already a possibility, in which case calling the cops might be better than the alternative. But when it's not? Please don't call the cops.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#56

Post by NoGravitas »

infosample wrote: post #44
fritzw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I absolutely agree with everything you said with one exception. > "Protect and Serve" Everyone thinks that the police's job is their motto. It was some strategic messaging, but they came up with that. Police weren't created to protect and serve. Going back to the foundations of the country's policing strategy, police exist to maintain order. That's why they arrest protesters, shoot unarmed guys who are noncompliant,…

Interesting you chose those specific examples. Police killing black men in those instances did the opposite of what you claim. They turned orderly to disorderly.

That's because they don't exist to protect order as such. They exist to protect a particular social order.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#57

Post by JustSomeNobody »

tcj_phx wrote: post #3

Prosecutors have a tough job. Prosecuting people who've hurt other people is the easy part of their job. Prosecuting people who haven't hurt anyone but themselves (self-medication w/ the street pharmacy), or who've become dependent on alcohol just to feel 'normal' [1]... Maybe prosecutors have to have a cruel streak to stick with the job after the novelty wears off. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14085230 S…

Cruel seems right:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/201...

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#58

Post by tyingq »

sheraz wrote: post #17

Sounds like this is an opportunity for a SVaaS (Subpoena Verification as a Service). (I'm joking -- right up until the point where I am not) I'm not even sure how one would verify that a subpoena is valid. I suppose the same goes for verifying badge numbers for police, fire marshalls, city inspectors, etc.

From the article, it sounds like looking for a judge's or court clerk's signature should suffice. If they forge that, they've crossed a line that's not ambiguous. If it doesn't have that, it isn't a subpoena.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#59

Post by matz1 »

Doxin wrote: post #42
duncan_bayne wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Only in America" is hyperbole. I'd buy "more frequently" but, realistically, the advice is still sound in any part of the world: don't call the cops if you don't want someone to get arrested. For those down voting, here are the stats from Australia, courtesy Wikipedia: "Data from the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) shows that during the 2009/10 year police took action against 375,259 people, up by 4.8 percent…

> Only in America" is hyperbole. Yes. Yes it is. > The advice is still sound in any part of the world: don't call the cops if you don't want someone to get arrested. The advice very much isn't sound in any part of the world, and I suggest you go live in a place with a friendly police force for a while. Your statistics prove nothing. You're taking a random country and asserting that the statistics for that country are…

Unfortunately it is the same in most of other part of the world, it is dangerous to assume that police is your friend.

Re: Louisiana prosecutors are using fake subpoenas to pressure witnesses to talk

#60

Post by jacquesm »

CodeWriter23 wrote: post #51
infosample wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking the law by those enforcing it is meh?

That's the reality of an overwhelmed court system, they make choices to optimize. It's a system of trust, balanced by a Judge reporting abusive attorneys to The Bar, which means most subpoenas are actually what a Judge would sign. In the case of this Louisiana Prosecutor, it seems like perhaps the courts are so overwhelmed they can't even get stacks of pre-signed subpoenas so they write their own. And the article sta…

That's not 'meh', that's totally upside-down from what it should be and any and all searches and seizures based on those diy subpoenas should be challenged and subsequently thrown out, as well as court cases that went through to conviction of a defendant based on one of those should be vacated.

This is exactly the sort of thing you should always fight against because it is bound to lead to abuses, if the judicial system can't keep up then things should grind to a halt, rather than proceed unchecked.

Post reply on HN