Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are courses in Norwegian?
None of the comp. sci. courses I have been to at least. Norwegian lecturers will usually ask if anyone does not speak Norwegian. This is at masters level at UiO; I am not sure about bachelor courses.
Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
131–140 of 254 posts
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#132Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounde…
AFAIK only the GPA matters as you have said (it's called Numerus Clausus or NC in Germany). If you look it up in a list, keep in mind that the German scale and the US 4 point GPA scale are reversed. 4.0 is the worst passing grade here and a 4.0 was an A+ at my US high school (I think there are different scales in different states?). For many degrees there's no GPA requirement at all. Engineering might very well be on…
Also, rents in Jena, Tübingen or Ilmenau are often on a Munich level, but you can always find a few shortcuts (like living in Weimar and taking the train to Jena).
Lastly, if the bachelor isn't meant to be your final degree it doesn't matter as much where you got it.
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#133Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…
> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…
With that out of the way, I was under the impression that there are some rather significant differences in the depth, breadth, and rigor between courses of study even at the undergrad level, at least in certain majors. For example, I've often heard that Harvard's undergrad math course is considered especially challenging. Is it really the case that an undergrad education at a place like MIT in math/physics, or some other STEM field, is without any differentiation from a similar major at Tufts or BU? I find that somewhat hard to believe.
I'm sure there are brilliant students at less prestigious institutions, as I'm sure there are not so brilliant ones even at places like MIT, but I would expect an undergrad math class at MIT would be somewhat different than one at BU. Am I wrong here?
On occasion I work with a rather brilliant engineer from Caltech and in talking with her she has relayed to me that one of the unique aspects of Caltech's undergrad education is that all students, regardless of major, must take a certain number of college level math and physics courses. That alone seems like a pretty big differentiator to me.
This isn't to say that we as a society don't perhaps put too much emphasis on the notoriety of big name schools, but I still find it somewhat unlikely that there really is zero difference in the degrees offered. Of course, I'm very often wrong so there's that.
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#134For a point of comparison, the annual tuition prices for colleges in Massachusetts: http://www.collegecalc.org/lists/massachusetts/most-affordab... Tufts, BC, BU, Olin, MIT, Northeastern, Brandeis all between 45k and 50k. Harvard 41k. When room, board, and books are factored in it's a quarter million dollars over four years. Public colleges (Umass) are a lot cheaper but I've heard "fees" can run up to 10K a semester.…
Some of those schools are unlike the others. It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree, makes less but still some sense for Tufts and Olin, and makes no sense at all for the rest. And the average college that Americans experience is a 2 year community college; very, very few attend schools of the caliber you're mentioning. It makes no sense to lump all these different schools together w…
From talking to people with college age kids in the states it seems that assistance for talent is largely gone, assistance for social position is still available. The issue I can see with this (as an outsider) is that there are very many kids right at the bottom of the social scale - assisting them makes lots of sense. But step one rung up (I'm not sure what the cut offs are but they seem very low) and no matter what talent you have you will get no assistance. This could generate a lot of resentment down the line...
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#135Should I study engineering in Germany? I'm looking at undergrad programs in California right now and the numbers don't add up for me. Not just tuition, but cost of living as a full time student as well. I also feel like it would be much easier for me (a non-traditional student) to get into a better university over there, as they pretty much just look at your test scores. Not all this GPA/extra-curricular "well rounde…
- In the US, you study a broad range of subjects at undergrad. So my bro had to do literature classes and such, even though he really just wanted to mess with computers. My UK and Germanic (Scandinavian/German/Swiss) friends went straight from high school directly into Engineering and only Engineering courses. Advice for doctors: save time this way. You'll be cutting up carcasses your first week of uni. I've met doctors in their early 20s and nurses in their teens.
- "Being a student" is different in Europe, and it's different between the UK and the continent. In the US, there's a 4-year ideal. You go, you study for 4 years, you're done. Not everyone manages this, but the top end at least is very much aimed at you being able to do that with your life. In Germanic countries it's relatively normal to take time out, even have a baby. Plenty of people take 7 years to do a 5 year course. Many friends of mine have done this. You get stressed, you take a semester out. You have a death in the family, you take time out. You generally find that people try to balance studying with life. This also means you'll find older people at university. 27 year olds are common.
- The UK is similar to the US in this respect. Almost everyone I know did their UK courses in one stretch, in the allotted 3 or 4 years.
- Many European universities have no campus as such. They're just spread out around the town. A small town like Cambridge is maybe the closest you get to a campus university, but it's still got town in it. Oxford is also a bit hard to classify, being in a medium sized town but with the colleges all in one section, with independent businesses and shops thrown in. But being out in town might have a big effect on your social life, so think about it.
- Getting into college is more straightforward in Europe than the US. They look at your grades, and only a little at your work/life experience (secondary ways to get in). In many countries there's a GPA you need that's published each year per course. Assuming you did the right mix of high school courses, you can look up what you could have gotten into.
- In the UK it was just a couple of pages when I did it; a list of your predicted grades, and a half page recommendation from a teacher. For Oxbridge it's then a couple of 30 minute interviews, and an offer letter saying what they need you to actually get on the exams. But you're not going to miss the place if they send you an offer. And you can do 6 applications on the same form.
- Very little special treatment in the European systems. Not a lot of stories of rich kids getting into Oxford because their dad built a library. The most you get is the boat race guys who study something odd sounding, but these days a lot of them study a real subject and do the real homework while training like nutters.
- In the US, it's monstrous. First there's legacy and donation people, and sports scholarships. Those are not open to most mortal folk, and I have zero idea how exactly you wrangle a place that way. So then there's filling out a large form, which costs money. There's SATs which you need, more money, more time. Then you gotta find a bunch of teachers who will write that you're a genius. And then you gotta demonstrate that in an amazing essay. And repeat for each university. I ended up not applying in the US when I got my offer letter in mid December.
- Many, many courses are in English despite being in the Germanic world. They don't like to admit it, but their languages are slowly being invaded by English. Also they understand you need English in modern academia. A fair few higher level science courses will be in English entirely. All the young people will speak English, many of them well enough to write academic papers. Anglo culture is everywhere, people will have watched your TV series and they know your music. Even to the point where several of the top acts in those countries are known for songs sung in English.
- Are the degrees accredited? This is an interesting question. In the UK and US I've never heard of anyone being asked to prove they had some degree. The facility does exist to ask your uni of course, it's just I've never heard of anyone being asked to see their diploma. Now it might matter if you're going to use the degree to get a further degree, but from what I've seen plenty of Europeans show up at Oxford to do a masters or DPhil, no problem. Other way round probably mostly works too.
- The only place I've ever been asked to show my diploma was in Switzerland. I had to go collect it at my old uni.
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#136If you are a young person living in a poor country, the two best investments you can make to improve your standard of living are (a) get a university education; and (b) immigrate to a rich country. Germany offers both: 1. A free undergraduate university degree 2. For every graduate: 18 month work visa after graduation 3. For every STEM graduate who earns more than EUR 40,000 per year: approval to work in Germany fore…
> and be able to borrow EUR 9,000 to apply for the student visa As far as I know there is not need of EUR 9,000 to apply for a student Visa, I studied in a german university as an international student, hence I know you do not need such amount of money to apply for Visa. In the other hand in many cases you can get scholarships which compensate for these expenses.
[0] https://www.daad.de/deutschland/nach-deutschland/bewerbung/e...
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#137Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…
Huge disclaimer here, I have never attended any undergraduate university so everything I say here is second hand and anecdotal. With that out of the way, I was under the impression that there are some rather significant differences in the depth, breadth, and rigor between courses of study even at the undergrad level, at least in certain majors. For example, I've often heard that Harvard's undergrad math course is con…
Secondly, regarding your comment "I find that somewhat hard to believe", so long as everyone keeps believing that then the cost value of the reputation and network probably justify the fees. It's part of their brand image. Marketing.
The proof is in then numbers though: do reputable university graduates discover more valuable insights more often, do they earn more, and live longer healthier happier lives? Is the net benefit to society worth the cost?
I'd argue it's all very difficult to quantify in the final analysis.
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#138Earlier quoted context omitted.
There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your fo…
Isn't admittance to these schools largely oriented towards wealth/past wealth, and the preference in those "prestigious" schools just to make sure that only wealthy families get those jobs? In that case, if it's a meaningful amount of money to you, it's probably not worth the investment because those firms will still look at you poorly
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#139Earlier quoted context omitted.
Agreed. Not all universities will be like this bad. But I think to some degree it will happen everywhere. Complaining is something I also always suggested, but now that I've experienced real life outside school/university for some time I'm not sure about that any more. For instance, you have a lot of rights here, but I found in my own experience that you only have the rights you know you have and you know how to enfo…
For instance, you have a lot of rights here, but I found in my own experience that you only have the rights you know you have and you know how to enforce. That is definitely true, for foreigners this starts at an even more basic level - all the relevant regulations are written in (bureaucratic) German. So, even if you want to read up on your rights, it can be difficult, unless you have near-native reading comprehensi…
Re: Why Germany Educates International Students for Free
#140Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It makes absolute sense to go $250k in debt for an MIT or Harvard degree No it doesn't? I think we should stop putting schools on a pedestal because of their name. I admire some of the research and work that comes out of those schools, but in the end their degrees are no better or worse than other schools' (regarding undergraduate, I can't speak for graduate). The only differences come down to network and academic…
There can be an "absolute sense" from a financial perspective. For better or worse, having a degree from Harvard/Stanford/MIT can open a number of doors that may be otherwise shut. Doors which can be very financially lucrative. For example, suppose you want to work in finance/law. Most prestigious firms place a very high premium on having a degree from a top university, and pay extremely generously if you get your fo…
Again, this is anecdotal, but I have a good friend who was accepted to both Berkeley and Stanford, among a host of other schools but those two were his top choices, as an undergrad transfer from a community college. He grew up extremely poor, not HN's definition of poor as in he can't afford a SFH in Noe, but poor as in relying on food stamps/section 8 with parents who never even graduated high school. He was leaning towards Cal but ultimately the financial aid package that Stanford gave him was too good to turn down. He will graduate with close to zero debt or loans.