Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress • Hacker News Board

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#141

Post by dang » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:05 AM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #18

glogla wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a trend where anything negative against a major company (most often microsoft, apple and google) is flagged rather quickly. My guess is that they realise how important HN is for public perception by tech people and run PR teams here.

Bots are run against everything else, no reason to think they aren't here.

That theory doesn't fit the data. The overwhelming majority of flags are by users who vote and comment indistinguishably from everybody else. If they're bots, somebody should tell OpenAI.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#142

Post by Applejinx » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:06 AM UTC

searchfaster wrote: post #46

throwaway75657 wrote: post #21

So what should you do if you find yourself in one of these situations and get let go? It gets really irritating having to explain what happened at the previous job in every interview.

Atleast AFAIK in Bayarea, nobody cares as long as you have the skills. I have had the pleasure of working with some amazing engineers & team players who were let go in earlier jobs.

Twice there you have re-sealed the trap. Oops.

As an indie developer doing one sort of 'dream job' (distributing exceptional software for free and moving towards open source, supported entirely by voluntary small contributions like some DSP Bernie) it's pretty easy for me to see the catch.

You can do anything you want IF you 'have the skills' and are 'amazing'. If you're not sufficiently amazing, then you're fooling yourself and might as well suicide (that's the feeling) because you're doomed anyhow. There is no one specific level of 'the skills' or 'amazing', it's a sort of sliding scale in which you can begin to lose simply because everyone around you took a level in 'amazing'. And everyone around you is incredibly driven and desperate…

You can call this motivational and not be so far wrong, but there's a really dark side when society is set up to have harsh punishments for losing. Ain't no welfare T-Bone steaks for homeless people pooping in the streets of San Francisco. I can't help but feel that in the Bay Area, there's no clear floor you can drop to. You can be amazing… or you can be NOT amazing, and there might be a level of 'untouchable caste' to the NOT amazing.

My own psychological method of fighting this (in my field there's definitely an element of 'abandon the losers before they saddle you with being associated with their fail') is to be defiant, claiming that I'm very poor but on an upward trajectory because I've seen the light of Open Source etc, that I am audaciously redefining what it means to be a dev/creator, and might decide to be always poor as dirt just to be defiant about it. It does keep me from suicide: finally committing to that POV made a noticeable difference. I think this attitude is echoed among other open-sourcers.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#143

Post by tribby » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:11 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #118

tribby wrote: post #99

tragic loss. I wonder what would happen if companies with high-stress environments employed on-site counselors. even if employees have outside help already, as mr. thomas did, it's very difficult -- for so many reasons -- to approach HR or consider a medical leave due to stress or mental illness. maybe creating a less daunting first step could help. in general, getting employers more proactively involved in asking ho…

In the UK occupational health schemes have limited success, especially in companies that have stigmatising views of mental health.

that's unfortunate but I guess I'm not too surprised to hear it. I kind of wonder if it would be more effective in silicon valley where mental health problems are a bit less stigmatized through a kind of necessity; the most notable thing about the high school I attended in palo alto is its ongoing cluster suicide problem.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#144

Post by throw2016 » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:11 AM UTC

I think best to avoid some discussions. If only to avoid being confronted with the realization you know but try hard to avoid of a world where empathy is in short supply.

Bad things happen but its how we respond that shines a ray of light through the darkness. It may gives others stuck in a similar situation a context.

Sometimes we just have to stop and consider where we are as a collective. The sense of bleakness of an uncaring unfeeling world is devastating I think to even the most cynical amongst us. When money is put above everything what is left is this dehumanizing bleakness. And wealth for those who embrace it.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#145

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:11 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #87

defined wrote: post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this. I don't live in the Bay Area. Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

[deleted]

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#146

Post by loftyal » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:13 AM UTC

Zelmor wrote: post #138

What I have found out over the years is that having roughly 4-6 months worth of living expenses in the bank (unblocked and accessible within 24 hours) alleviates stress. Figure out how many months worth of savings makes you feel comfortable, and have an 'oh shit' budget figured out for times of willing/unwilling unemployment. For example, I can cut my spendings by 40% in case of unemployment simply by cutting luxury…

Doesn't help when you have notice period of 2 months

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#147

Post by paradite » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:13 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #141

rhizome wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bots are run against everything else, no reason to think they aren't here.

That theory doesn't fit the data. The overwhelming majority of flags are by users who vote and comment indistinguishably from everybody else. If they're bots, somebody should tell OpenAI.

I am very glad to know that HN has the necessary data to conduct such investigations and is doing so. Now I have much more confidence in HN.

Also, it would be an interesting read if you could publish some of the findings as a post or something.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#148

Post by thecatspaw » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:19 AM UTC

loftyal wrote: post #146

Zelmor wrote: post #138

What I have found out over the years is that having roughly 4-6 months worth of living expenses in the bank (unblocked and accessible within 24 hours) alleviates stress. Figure out how many months worth of savings makes you feel comfortable, and have an 'oh shit' budget figured out for times of willing/unwilling unemployment. For example, I can cut my spendings by 40% in case of unemployment simply by cutting luxury…

Doesn't help when you have notice period of 2 months

if you feel so shitty about work that you're getting suicidal im sure a doctor/psychologist will write you a doctors note for those 2 months

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#149

Post by throwaway6390 » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:22 AM UTC

boomzilla wrote: post #37

elvinyung wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this doesn't completely address your comment, but the article mentions a Facebook message made by him: > “The sad thing is this place (Uber) has broken me to the point where I don’t have the strength to look for another job,” Thomas wrote.

Be frugal. Don't buy a house unless you have at least 6 months of payments in the bank. Don't buy a car if you need to take a loan. Save as much you can. Build and maintain a strong network outside work (family/friends/professional contacts). Every time I got into a difficult situation at work, I take a deep breath and tell myself: "Don't worry, give it your best shot to resolve this. And if that's not good enough, y…

There's a lot of truth to this, but if you've never worked this kind of job, you won't be prepared. Working this kind of job is what made me really understand the value of being able to say "FUCK YOU" and quit/not worry about getting fired. It drove me to build savings and now I insist on having no debt and at least $10k in the bank. It also drove me to move to a cheaper city, find a cheap apartment there, etc. $10k isn't a huge amount to some of you, but it's enough to pay the bills through a decent job search if your fixed expenses are low. Once I paid off debts and had that buffer, my soul-sucking horrible job seemed way better since I no longer feared being fired. It even allowed me to quit that job abruptly and enjoy life for a few weeks before going back to work.

We're pretty smart in some ways, but too many of us live essentially paycheck-to-paycheck. In an industry where jobs aren't hard to come by, and the pay's pretty good, it's easy to fall into that trap. If you're doing this, stop! Do whatever it takes to break the cycle. Sell your car. Sell your unnecessary stuff if that helps to start saving. Stop acting as if your future paychecks are guaranteed. You have no idea what a weight off your shoulders it is to not fear losing your job.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#150

Post by bonesss » Wed, Apr 26, 2017, 9:26 AM UTC

NovaS1X wrote: post #90

This article has resonated with me far more than I thought it would. I can't help but think that this is not just an Uber culture problem but a problem of culture in general. Hyper productivity is so in fashion and I don't think it's good for us. I spent a number of years in tech in Vancouver and during my time I went though a period of unconscious breakdown which ended up with me in the hospital with perimyocarditis…

> Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement of success?

The ideals of Protestant Work Ethic have historically dominated north american culture, and provided a work-oriented definition of personal worth. Nose to the grind stone as the most salient measure of personal contribution...

It's one of the reasons I believe that aggressive photography is so common from American, German, and Japanese tourists: it's a vacation-job to fill the days so that even vacation seems like needed production.

Fevered work dreams do not a life make, and cameras quickly turn into filters to avoid experiencing things directly. And the bottom line is that we all need to learn to sit on the floor and play like a 2 year old, without filters and without external expectations.