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Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

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Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#81

Post by schneid3306 »

I stated something similar in a reply below, but I think it is worth repeating on its own...

It is hard to describe to someone who never experienced a job that is overwhelmingly and exclusively awful how much of an impact it makes on you. And I am not talking about a job that you don't like or don't enjoy. I mean a job that has zero redeeming qualities and a culture that is incredibly toxic.

You feel like a failure at work, but there is nothing you can do to improve or impress the higher ups. Nothing is good enough. Period. Managers are instructed not to give out performance reviews any higher than a 3/5 for their best performers because the company does not want to pay out bonuses. You can be outputting 44% of the work of a 13 person team and you are called out by your immediate supervisor because you had a word document open and "it was closed the next time I walked by. So you clearly are not working your full 8 hours a day." You have to handle the work of three, then four, then five people because everyone else seems to be getting hired elsewhere and quitting. And the company certainly isn't replacing them. (Cost savings, yay!) You aren't able to find a new job despite putting out dozens of feelers and going to a couple interviews a month, and getting to the final interview rounds for 3 or 4 jobs. Congratulations, you worthless POS. You cannot even get hired out of that company. Maybe you really are that awful of an employee. You are miserable. And you see an out (quitting) but if you quit (without a job) there are a whole bunch of questions. Will someone like you ever be able to find work again? If you can't find work over five months while you are employed, what makes you think you would stand out anymore if you were unemployed? And in some ways the unknowns caused by quitting are even worse than the misery.

So, you go back in the next day and go "no way the prospect of losing my home can be worse than this." Then you go home and it is "no way my job can be worse than losing my home and failing my wife and kids." And in both cases you realize that, yes, somehow, both of those statements are true. The job is more miserable than losing the home which is more miserable than the job which is more miserable than letting down my wife and kids which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than losing my home which is more miserable than my job which is more miserable than letting my family starve which is more miserable than my job...

...and suddenly you find yourself with a gun in the front seat of your car because there is nothing in life that is not miserable. Nothing.

I was able to quit my toxic job. But if I was in a situation similar to that of Mr. Thomas, I can easily see why he thought he only had one option. And it is heartbreaking for his family.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#82

Post by defined »

I'd like to address the many comments that try to be helpful and offer advice, while expressing bemusement that the obvious step of just leaving and getting another job was apparently rejected in favor of suicide.

Edward de Bono of Lateral Thinking fame wrote a book named "Po: Beyond Yes and No" [1].

While not the most catchy title, in the book he describes the process of forming patterns in the mind as analogous to pouring warm ink over jello. After a while, channels begin to form and the ink naturally starts to flow down the channels, deepening them. It's pretty obvious that (a) knowing you are stuck in a groove takes some insight and (b) breaking out of the thought patterns can be pretty challenging.

De Bono also invented the L game. The interesting thing about this game is that it demonstrates very visually a flaw in human thinking: once you have started down a path in a decision tree and pruned off other possibilities, all your answers from that point onwards will be wrong if that path doesn't contain the right answer.

Pretty obvious, but where the flaw comes in is that, unlike computers, humans don't tend to backtrack past a point of a belief that "this is axiomatic", and never reexamine it.

I think that - and this is just IMHO - people who go on to commit suicide when there are other, obviously better solutions, are stuck deep down the wrong branch of a decision tree and incapable of reevaluating prior decisions.

Offering rational advice to people in this position is futile; what's needed is to help them pour warm ink to form new channels.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Po-Beyond-Yes-Edward-Bono/dp/01401378...

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#83

Post by benchaney »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #71
droopyEyelids wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is we should be careful about "doing something" and then indulging in the satisfaction of "something has been done", especially if there is no evidence that the 'something' we pick is beneficial to anyone.

I would agree with you if the cost was high. Running a suicide prevention hotline strikes me as a low cost preventative measure, moreso if you get actuarial/gruesome and take into account someone's dollar value as a human being (mid to high six figures for most people).

The real cost of doing something because something must be done is the false sense of satisfaction. That cost is potentially very high in this case.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#84

Post by toomuchtodo »

benchaney wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree with you if the cost was high. Running a suicide prevention hotline strikes me as a low cost preventative measure, moreso if you get actuarial/gruesome and take into account someone's dollar value as a human being (mid to high six figures for most people).

The real cost of doing something because something must be done is the false sense of satisfaction. That cost is potentially very high in this case.

An educated guess now is better then perfect data later.

We should of course continue to research ways to stem suicides and the conditions that cultivate someone feeling they have no other options.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#85

Post by vacri »

jupiter90000 wrote: post #61
roystonvassey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you know now of a better solution, it is important to, at least, point out the options available. Are there other interventions that are better than hotlines?

I'm not sure. I just get the feeling the hotlines are more for people to feel like they're doing something to help, when maybe they're really not doing much at all. I'd like to find out more about what really would help, and hope that I and others would be willing to put the real effort in to make a difference, behind something that works.

The next line immediately after the one you quoted was "Admittedly, it seems that their efficacy to help people in crises (not necessarily suicidal) is far greater than their impact on suicide rates."

Crisis hotlines are definitely doing things, even if the suicide prevention analysis bit is inconclusive.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#86

Post by bigbugbag »

roystonvassey wrote: post #52
jupiter90000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is in the state of mind of wanting to take their own life, will they desire to call to talk to a stranger on a hotline? "In spite of their popularity and attractiveness, so far there is no conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of suicide prevention hot lines and crise centres" (2004) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/

Unless you know now of a better solution, it is important to, at least, point out the options available. Are there other interventions that are better than hotlines?

According to science, regulating firearms is effective is reducing suicide rates.

https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/guns https://soundcloud.com/science-vs/gun-control-pt-2

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#87

Post by skrebbel »

defined wrote: post #25

This is not unique to Uber. I have worked in toxic environments that depleted and debilitated me to the point that, in two cases, I was psychologically completely incapable of even thinking about finding work for three months after being laid off from one, and quitting the other. It doesn't even take abusive bosses who don't like you, although that just makes it far worse. It simply takes being treated like a robotic…

I keep reading stories like these on HN, yet I don't know a single person who has experienced anything even remotely close to this.

I don't live in the Bay Area.

Are SV startups, in general, really this badly managed? If I add up all anecdata from reading HN comments about toxic work environments, I get the impression that 50% of the Valley is run like this. I have a hard time comprehending how this can happen.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#89

Post by aaron695 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #38
jupiter90000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is in the state of mind of wanting to take their own life, will they desire to call to talk to a stranger on a hotline? "In spite of their popularity and attractiveness, so far there is no conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of suicide prevention hot lines and crise centres" (2004) https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1414695/

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives. "Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle". -- Plato Edit: @aaron695: that is what I was trying to communicate

> Regardless, we should still strive to give that person alternatives.

No.

We should strive to help them.

This comment it literally saying we should feel better about ourselves even though I'm sure it wasn't your intention.

Re: Suicide of an Uber engineer: Widow blames job stress

#90

Post by NovaS1X »

This article has resonated with me far more than I thought it would.

I can't help but think that this is not just an Uber culture problem but a problem of culture in general. Hyper productivity is so in fashion and I don't think it's good for us.

I spent a number of years in tech in Vancouver and during my time I went though a period of unconscious breakdown which ended up with me in the hospital with perimyocarditis (heart failure due to unknown reasons, ie: stress).

After a number of years doing what I have aspired to do for what is really the majority of my conscious life, I ended up quitting my career and just leaving altogether. I met a girl, she was not from my country, and when she had to leave, I took the opportunity as an out from the life that I was living. At the same time, I began using photography as a way to explore my new city and as a creative outlet, as tech no longer was that outlet and became a source of stress.

The interesting thing is, once I left tech and began to put my free time in to photography I got caught up in the same culture that I've been trying to leave. Managing Instagram, Facebook, 500px, Flickr, and YouTube profiles to garner my following. The constant idolization of " work work work" I see YouTubers and IGers tout. Constantly judging myself against other people. Always feeling like I'm not good enough yet or that I'm lacking in talent that other naturally have. Believing that I'm not living my life correctly in relation to the perceived 10xers around me. Chasing the illusion of the 1%.

This article handed me an epiphany. I'm only taking the life I want to leave with me.

Why is it so that I feel the need to chase hyper productivity as a measurement of success?

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