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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#161

Post by dsp1234 »

echion wrote: post #155
anigbrowl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. See my other reply above. You're ignoring important context that defines personal behavior separately from defining what the professional duties of an engineer include. As a simple example, if you have a faint and I ask you if you're all right, what you're feeling etc., that doesn't mean I'm practicing medicine without a license despite the diagnostic nature of my questions.

I'm saying the Board's justification clearly says, irrespective of whether he said he was an engineer, just engaging in the practice of [creative work using mathematics and engineering knowledge] is subject to registration. I mean, if he hadn't said he was an engineer to Licensed Engineers many times, I agree nobody would have bothered. But now that they've bothered, their justifications matter.

is subject to registration.

You are incorrect. See my other post with a link to the clear exceptions baked directly into the law.

If what you said were true, then he literally would not have had an affirmative defense to plead at all, which is plainly wrong as the final order specifically notes his pleading of 2 affirmative defenses.

You can find these analysis of those affirmative defenses by reviewing the sections of the final order starting at 19

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#162

Post by slavik81 »

fsloth wrote: post #141
takk309 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional licensing exists to protect the public at large from fraud. Would you want a public building, say a sports stadium, designed by someone without the proper training? Engineering licenses add a layer of protection and assurance that the person performing the work is truly capable of performing the work.

I think you need to think of a better example. The stadium would be built by a major contractor, and they would be responsible for hiring capable people. In general, having a university degree in structural engineering means a person can design structures that don't fall down. In this instance, having a license would be just like an extra stamp on the university degree.

A person with just a degree is not qualified to design large structures. Licensure requires several years of experience under the supervision and mentorship of a professional. Schools teach the theory, but there's lots of practical details that require experience to learn and understand. You're just required to work with others who know what they're doing for a while. Then you're allowed to do things alone.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#163

Post by [deleted] »

echion wrote: post #155
anigbrowl wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. See my other reply above. You're ignoring important context that defines personal behavior separately from defining what the professional duties of an engineer include. As a simple example, if you have a faint and I ask you if you're all right, what you're feeling etc., that doesn't mean I'm practicing medicine without a license despite the diagnostic nature of my questions.

I'm saying the Board's justification clearly says, irrespective of whether he said he was an engineer, just engaging in the practice of [creative work using mathematics and engineering knowledge] is subject to registration. I mean, if he hadn't said he was an engineer to Licensed Engineers many times, I agree nobody would have bothered. But now that they've bothered, their justifications matter.

[deleted]

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#164

Post by jnbiche »

cbhl wrote: post #77
jnbiche wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NCEES absolutely offers a PE exam in the US for software engineers, for about 5 years now [1]. Most states offer PE licenses now in software engineering. 1. (note the "software" in the list of exams offered) http://ncees.org/engineering/pe/

Is California one of those states?

I don't know, but I remember that a slide from the NCEES from 2013 states that 30 states were already offering it, and 10 more scheduled to go online in 2014. So perhaps all 50 are offering it now? You'd have to call/check out the CA Board of Engineering to know for sure, unless someone here can confirm.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#165

Post by anigbrowl »

echion wrote: post #146
takk309 wrote: post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

> The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. That's not the only issue the Board said it had, and not the most important one at that: > [...] you continued to use the title "engineer" in your communication with Board staff and, of more concern , are the documents you provided that indicate you may have engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon. (emphasis mine). It's th…

No he is not being punished for thinking and speech.

You're treating the documents containing his proposal as a completely separate issue from his claim of professional status, but the documents are a doubling down upon his original and repeated false claim of being an engineer, which claim he was warned he should not be making.

If I hold out a mystery pill and invite you to swallow it, how you react will differ considerably depending on whether or not you believe I'm a doctor. This is in no way a commentary on the efficacy of the pill, but only on whether I am likely to have the appropriate medical knowledge that would justify my suggestion.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#166

Post by mikeyouse »

taf2 wrote: post #151

Interesting- so I have a BS in computer engineering. Do I get to say I'm an engineer or would that be illegal?

Assuming you're in Oregon;

You can say you're an engineer

You can recommend new traffic signal algorithms

But you can't say you're an engineer while recommending new traffic signal algorithms

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#167

Post by gtirloni »

rmxt wrote: post #96
takk309 wrote: post #89

The issue that the Board has is that he claimed to be an engineer in a public forum. The Boards interpretation of "engineer" in this context was to mean Traffic Engineer. The Board warned Järlström that he was in violation of the Law and asked him to stop claiming to be an engineer, to which he agreed. It was later, when he continued to claim to be an engineer that legal action was taken. It is also of note, and stat…

Completely agreed. He pretty much barked up the one tree that actively cares about use of the title "engineer", and used it in violation of the law (as it is now). Had he sent the letter/formula/math/suggestions to the local state university civil engineering department, the local/state Dept. of Transportation, or the local/state representative, the response would have fallen on less deaf ears, and his use of the tit…

Fining the man was probably what the law dictates. Yet, it feels so wrong in this case.

Reminds me of this talk by Barry Schwartz: https://www.ted.com/talks/barry_schwartz_on_our_loss_of_wisd...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#169

Post by anigbrowl »

memracom wrote: post #153

When they told him that changing an engineered ITE formula constitutes the practice of engineering without a licence, he should have claimed that he was a performance artist and his letters should be considered a comedic performance designed to draw public attention to the court jesters who claim to be engineers but came up with the flawed ITE formula which even a performance artist can find flaws with. That would be…

Why not just be honest from the outset?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#170

Post by xkcd-sucks »

anigbrowl wrote: post #133
xkcd-sucks wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ORS 672.005(1)(b) simply describes 'stuff an engineer does', in terrifyingly broad strokes. If "professional services or creative work" could be read as "services or creative work, either of which are done for money," perhaps it would be okay?

It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…

Is is an intellectual mistake, but, as demonstrated by this case and others, it is a mistake which clearly happens in the real world, and one whose consequences are inflicted upon people who have little ability to defend themselves
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