Interesting- so I have a BS in computer engineering. Do I get to say I'm an engineer or would that be illegal?
Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
ORS 672.005(1)(b) simply describes 'stuff an engineer does', in terrifyingly broad strokes. If "professional services or creative work" could be read as "services or creative work, either of which are done for money," perhaps it would be okay?
It's a mistake to pick out individual phrases and treat them as if they were mathematical equalities. Look at the preamble to that section: 'As used in ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties), unless the context requires otherwise: ' It's terrifying because you are reading bits of it out of context and extrapolating incorrectly to the broadest scope imaginable. I perform some…
> You are not going to get fined just for calculating the hypotenuse of a triangle in public
If the argument is "he said he was an 'engineer' and he isn't licensed", that's fine. And the Board's Final Report contains a lot of language establishing that, and for that he can be fined.
But the Board's Report goes out of its way to say that ORS 672.005(c) and ORS 672.002 define "practicing engineering" as quite close to just "calculating the hypotenuse of a triangle in public", and that just practicing engineering in this manner without registration is not allowed. Check Section 14 of the Final Report. It makes no reference to "purporting to be an engineer": it's "by [critiquing an engineering formula] and submitting the critique [...] to members of the public" [...he...] thereby engaged in the practice of engineering [...] specifically, traffic engineering [...and thus] violated ORS 672.020(1), 672.045(1) and OAR 820-010-0730(3)(c)".
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#153When they told him that changing an engineered ITE formula constitutes the practice of engineering without a licence, he should have claimed that he was a performance artist and his letters should be considered a comedic performance designed to draw public attention to the court jesters who claim to be engineers but came up with the flawed ITE formula which even a performance artist can find flaws with.
That would be free speech for sure.
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Using the title "engineer" in conjunction with "submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification [...] of traffic signals", I believe, is the critical part here. I hear you, and agree that when he says "I'm an engineer", we have a certain set of laws that apply to that speech. I'm saying there is another aspect which is the the crux of the reply-to-top-level…
That's because you're lifting it out of the relevant context. He has already messed things up for them by previously claiming to be an engineer to government agencies and local and national media. He can't unring that bell because he already accepted a warning (absent any fine or penalty) and agreed to abide by the Code on not calling himself an engineer and then repeatedly broke that agreement, so he doesn't get to…
If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
He clearly would. Just doing the things is deemed "engineering", even if he called it "monading".
No. See my other reply above. You're ignoring important context that defines personal behavior separately from defining what the professional duties of an engineer include. As a simple example, if you have a faint and I ask you if you're all right, what you're feeling etc., that doesn't mean I'm practicing medicine without a license despite the diagnostic nature of my questions.
I'm saying the Board's justification clearly says, irrespective of whether he said he was an engineer, just engaging in the practice of [creative work using mathematics and engineering knowledge] is subject to registration.
I mean, if he hadn't said he was an engineer to Licensed Engineers many times, I agree nobody would have bothered. But now that they've bothered, their justifications matter.
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Using the title "engineer" in conjunction with "submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification [...] of traffic signals", I believe, is the critical part here. If he had merely submitted the "critique and calculations" for "consideration" as a concerned citizen, he would have not gotten a fine. Simply put, he called himself an engineer and suggested that pub…
> Using the title "engineer" in conjunction with "submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification [...] of traffic signals", I believe, is the critical part here. I hear you, and agree that when he says "I'm an engineer", we have a certain set of laws that apply to that speech. I'm saying there is another aspect which is the the crux of the reply-to-top-level…
The law is not without context, nor is the law not without exceptions.
Indeed there is a whole set of exceptions related to "Exception to application of ORS 672.002 to 672.325"[0].
You may be interested in ORS 672.060(6)(a and b):
(6) The performance of engineering work by a person, or by full-time employees of the person, provided:
(a) The work is in connection with or incidental to the operations of the person; and
(b) The engineering work is not offered directly to the public.
Indeed, this is one of the affirmative defenses that he tried using, but was rejected.
Basically, you can't just stop at a definition in law, you have to read the full law to know what the law says.
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's because you're lifting it out of the relevant context. He has already messed things up for them by previously claiming to be an engineer to government agencies and local and national media. He can't unring that bell because he already accepted a warning (absent any fine or penalty) and agreed to abide by the Code on not calling himself an engineer and then repeatedly broke that agreement, so he doesn't get to…
If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.
> If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.
You are mistaken: I told you in an earlier reply that the first linked document states he is not licensed to practice in any state.
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#158I run up against this sometimes in Canada. I studied "Software Engineering" and have a bachelors degree from Australia. I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers (accredited degree). If I say something like "I am a Software Engineer" when I work in Canada, any other Engineers will get all prickly and go on about how that's not a recognized kind of Engineer, and it's illegal to say-so, blah blah. Even if…
> To get my degree accredited in Canada, I must work some huge number of hours as a Software Engineer working with Software Engineers. But of course, there is no such thing in Canada , and so... yeah. We exist. I'm a Canadian P.Eng. (Software). I got my experience working on software for controlling unmanned vehicles, and I know a few dozen other Software P.Engs. Requiring some amount of local experience makes sense,…
Oh wow, I had no idea.
Thanks very much, there is hope!
(And thanks to all the other replies too!)
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#159Interesting- so I have a BS in computer engineering. Do I get to say I'm an engineer or would that be illegal?
In Canada it would be illegal. You need to be a member of the professional professional order to be able to call yourself an engineer. I have a BS and a Ph.D. in EE, still can't call myself engineer (nor doctor).
Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's because you're lifting it out of the relevant context. He has already messed things up for them by previously claiming to be an engineer to government agencies and local and national media. He can't unring that bell because he already accepted a warning (absent any fine or penalty) and agreed to abide by the Code on not calling himself an engineer and then repeatedly broke that agreement, so he doesn't get to…
If I'm not mistaken, he is an engineer, and even a licensed one too, just not licensed in the Oregonian jurisdiction.
According the final order, he is not. Page 2 of [0].
"Jarlstrom is not now, and never has been, registered to practice engineering in Oregon, or any other state in the United States. Jarlstrom has claimed to be a Swedish engineer. However, engineering is not a regulated profession in Sweden. No licensure, registration or certification is offered or required to practice engineering in Sweden"
[0] - https://www.scribd.com/embeds/346354146/content?start_page=1...