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Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

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Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#111

Post by flamedoge »

anigbrowl wrote: post #53
flamedoge wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

government and law trumping math and science. It saddens me.

Nothing got trumped. He would have been fine if he had made the exact same argument with asserting that he was an engineer, a claim that has specific legal implications that are easily verified. If you wrote an article on cardiology, and you said 'I am a doctor' but you hadn't kept your medical license current, then it would be a false claim, regardless of the fact that your article on cardiology was 100% true. Asser…

There appears to be desire to adhere to whatever legal framework to give power and authority to status based on education and history. However, certain things are absolute and trumps any legal framework. Math and science don't change or abide by human laws. Discrediting work based on credentials may work in other fields, but you can't discredit math and science *by anything other than themselves.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#112

Post by miiiiiike »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #32
miiiiiike wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went through an ABET accredited software engineering program, they pointed us to the NSPE. I'm not a PE but I still call myself a software engineer on everything except government forms. As far as the government's concerned I'm a programmer.

I went through an ABET accredited electrical engineering program, and they said that those of us who didn't want to work in government shouldn't bother with it.

Yeah, a lot of our courses were designed with government work in mind. CMMI.. Ooph.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#113

Post by ryanmarsh »

I just did a search for "software engineer" in Oregon on Indeed. Shopify and many others are using the term engineer in their job listings. Are candidates referring to themselves as engineers to get these jobs? Are they then putting themselves at risk?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#114

Post by xkcd-sucks »

anigbrowl wrote: post #93
echion wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular: By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public eq…

Yes but he wouldn't be engaging in the practice of engineering if he were to disclaim the title of engineer. Of course, if Jarlstrom were to disavow being a licensed engineer, he might not have garnered as much as interest for his proposals as he did by implying he possessed the relevant credential.

ORS 672.005(1)(b) simply describes 'stuff an engineer does', in terrifyingly broad strokes.

If "professional services or creative work" could be read as "services or creative work, either of which are done for money," perhaps it would be okay?

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#115

Post by rmxt »

echion wrote: post #101
anigbrowl wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but he wouldn't be engaging in the practice of engineering if he were to disclaim the title of engineer. Of course, if Jarlstrom were to disavow being a licensed engineer, he might not have garnered as much as interest for his proposals as he did by implying he possessed the relevant credential.

He clearly would. Just doing the things is deemed "engineering", even if he called it "monading".

Using the title "engineer" in conjunction with "submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification [...] of traffic signals", I believe, is the critical part here.

If he had merely submitted the "critique and calculations" for "consideration" as a concerned citizen, he would have not gotten a fine. Simply put, he called himself an engineer and suggested that public infrastructure be changed. In Oregon, when you're not licensed by the state, you can't use the title "Engineer", and you definitely don't want to use it while trying to suggest modifications to public infrastructure.

I'm not equating the two in terms of "I believe both situations are completely just"... but doing what he did is akin to a thief walking himself into the police station. The purpose of the Board of Engineers in most states is not to decide what is "good engineering practice" and what is "bad engineering practice", it's to regulate licensure and set the bar for who is qualified to be an "Engineer" in the eyes of the state. He mis-navigated the American system, for better or worse, and paid a fine that is meant to dissuade people from doing things like this:

http://laist.com/2016/01/30/fake_civil_engineers_may_have_bu...

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#116

Post by jack9 »

bgun wrote: post #3

Honest curiosity: is it fraud (in the US) to claim that you are a member of a profession that you are not? (I am not saying that is what he intended to do here). For example, if someone owes me money, is it illegal for me to send them a letter, in which I purport to be a lawyer?

> is it fraud (in the US) to claim that you are a member of a profession that you are not?

Architect, Lawyer and Medical Doctor, for sure.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#117

Post by ThrustVectoring »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #109

Professional licensing of just about every kind serves one and one purpose only: Fatten someone's pocket and artificially restrict the labor supply to favor those already licensed. Period. You can certainly make an argument that it looks like he went out of his way to piss 'em off, but the fact that he could be charged for calling himself "an engineer" -- and the fact that we all have come to a point where we think i…

Of course the point of a license is to help those who can get licensed at the expense of those who cannot. The ethical systems of licensing have a point, where society wants to favor those who can get a license. Driver's licenses are a good example of this - we as a society want to artificially restrict the supply of drivers to those who can pass examinations for vision, knowing the rules of the road, and ability to follow certain professional rules (eg, not driving drunk). Or electricians, where the cabal of people who know electrical code has a distinct advantage for society (that is, not burning down their buildings via faulty wiring).

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#118

Post by mahyarm »

slavik81 wrote: post #42
grecy wrote: post #10

I run up against this sometimes in Canada. I studied "Software Engineering" and have a bachelors degree from Australia. I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers (accredited degree). If I say something like "I am a Software Engineer" when I work in Canada, any other Engineers will get all prickly and go on about how that's not a recognized kind of Engineer, and it's illegal to say-so, blah blah. Even if…

> To get my degree accredited in Canada, I must work some huge number of hours as a Software Engineer working with Software Engineers. But of course, there is no such thing in Canada , and so... yeah. We exist. I'm a Canadian P.Eng. (Software). I got my experience working on software for controlling unmanned vehicles, and I know a few dozen other Software P.Engs. Requiring some amount of local experience makes sense,…

As a Canadian, the career benefit is zilch, because most of Canada's software career opportunities pale in comparison to the USA (pay is half or less, house prices are pretty close in price in employment centers!) . And in the USA, nobody cares about that when you write software.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#119

Post by dhfhduk »

ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #109

Professional licensing of just about every kind serves one and one purpose only: Fatten someone's pocket and artificially restrict the labor supply to favor those already licensed. Period. You can certainly make an argument that it looks like he went out of his way to piss 'em off, but the fact that he could be charged for calling himself "an engineer" -- and the fact that we all have come to a point where we think i…

This is one of the great unrecognized problems with the economy at the moment. I'm not so sure about engineering, but it's created all sorts of monopolies in health care that have nothing really to do with actual safety risks or any kind of rational approach to mitigating risk, and everything to do with protecting guild members.

License = union.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#120

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

cholantesh wrote: post #56
slavik81 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To get my degree accredited in Canada, I must work some huge number of hours as a Software Engineer working with Software Engineers. But of course, there is no such thing in Canada , and so... yeah. We exist. I'm a Canadian P.Eng. (Software). I got my experience working on software for controlling unmanned vehicles, and I know a few dozen other Software P.Engs. Requiring some amount of local experience makes sense,…

I've considered getting my P.Eng. once I complete my degree; do you feel that it's a worthwhile credential to have? Every P.Eng. that I've met has been involved in mechanical or electrical engineering, so I'd like to get the perspective of someone in software.

In the US it's only of use in industries where life safety is important (you have to sign off on potentially harmful technology) or to serve as an expert witness in court.

Getting one generally requires at least one existing PE who can vouch for the quality of your work which creates a chicken and egg problem if there are no PEs where you work.

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