Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't • Hacker News Board

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#101

Post by echion » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:29 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #93

echion wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He's perfectly at liberty to [share the information] No, he's not according to the violations cited in Final Order, page 6, section heading #14; in particular: By reviewing, critiquing, and altering an engineered ITE formula, and submitting the critique and calculations [...] to members of the public for consideration and modification of Beaverton, Oregon's and worldwide traffic signals, which signals are public eq…

Yes but he wouldn't be engaging in the practice of engineering if he were to disclaim the title of engineer. Of course, if Jarlstrom were to disavow being a licensed engineer, he might not have garnered as much as interest for his proposals as he did by implying he possessed the relevant credential.

He clearly would. Just doing the things is deemed "engineering", even if he called it "monading".

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#102

Post by foobarchu » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:30 PM UTC

JBReefer wrote: post #76

monochromatic wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You really do get to say whatever the fuck you want in this country, as long as it doesn't cause direct harm to someone else The Supreme Court disagrees.

Can you cite a case? Hate speech etc has a long history of being court-supported.

That's because prohibiting hate speech would be nothing but suppression of speech. If you use hate speech to incite a riot, that is a crime. Simply saying it is not.

Similarly, simply saying "i am an engineer" is obviously not a crime. Students do it all the time, despite not being licensed. Using it to lend credence to your ideas around traffic lights, however, may be a different story. I think thats the crux of the dispute.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#103

Post by coupdejarnac » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

awinter-py wrote: post #33

We need to design better due process for fines. Privacy may be part of the problem -- yes it would suck to publicize everyone's whole history of administrative fines, but making this information public by default would limit corrupt application of the rules.

As far as I know, all disciplinary actions for state-regulated licenses are public information.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#104

Post by lacampbell » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:31 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #10

I run up against this sometimes in Canada. I studied "Software Engineering" and have a bachelors degree from Australia. I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers (accredited degree). If I say something like "I am a Software Engineer" when I work in Canada, any other Engineers will get all prickly and go on about how that's not a recognized kind of Engineer, and it's illegal to say-so, blah blah. Even if…

For you, what's the distinction between being a software engineer, and being a software developer? The line seems blurry to me.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#105

Post by mschuster91 » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

Nothing new in legal terms, claiming regulated titles is a crime or offense in a lot of jurisdictions - including Germany (§132a StGB, see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missbrauch_von_Titeln,_Berufsb...).

Unrelated to the legal issues, what the engineering board is doing seems to be beyond ridiculous. IMHO Mr. Järlström should have informed himself better about the implications of the word "engineer"... but you know the old saying "three felonies a day", this case seems to validate it.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#106

Post by Waterluvian » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #10

I run up against this sometimes in Canada. I studied "Software Engineering" and have a bachelors degree from Australia. I am a member of the Australian Institute of Engineers (accredited degree). If I say something like "I am a Software Engineer" when I work in Canada, any other Engineers will get all prickly and go on about how that's not a recognized kind of Engineer, and it's illegal to say-so, blah blah. Even if…

I do software engineering and work alongside many brilliant people with Canadian engineering degrees. I happen to have geography and science degrees, so while I do a lot of the same work, I'm not an engineer. I've settled on being a "developer" or a "roboticist".

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#107

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:32 PM UTC

awinter-py wrote: post #33

We need to design better due process for fines. Privacy may be part of the problem -- yes it would suck to publicize everyone's whole history of administrative fines, but making this information public by default would limit corrupt application of the rules.

What's wrong with this? The Board asked him to stop calling himself an engineer, without any fines, and he agreed. He broke the agreement, repeatedly, at which point they launched an investigation and then slapped him with a very small fine. I see absolutely zero evidence of corruption here. It seems a lot of readers are only looking at matters from Jarlstrom's side, and completely ignoring the fact of his bad faith.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#108

Post by muninn_ » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:33 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #58

muninn_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: "However, it is important to make a distinction between a "graduate engineer" and a "professional engineer" or "licensed engineer." A "graduate engineer" is anyone holding a degree in engineering from an accredited four-year university program, but is not licensed to practice or offer services to the public. Unlicensed engineers usually work as employees for a company, or as professors in engineering…

It's unwise to rely on a Wikipedia for legal analysis; at best you should treat it as a good starting point for your more detailed research.

I was quoting OP's link and not providing legal analysis - just demonstrating faulty reasoning provided by OP.

Meanwhile I'll keep on being an engineer all the live long day :)

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#109

Post by ChicagoBoy11 » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:35 PM UTC

Professional licensing of just about every kind serves one and one purpose only: Fatten someone's pocket and artificially restrict the labor supply to favor those already licensed. Period.

You can certainly make an argument that it looks like he went out of his way to piss 'em off, but the fact that he could be charged for calling himself "an engineer" -- and the fact that we all have come to a point where we think it is something reasonable -- is so upsetting.

Re: Man Fined $500 for Crime of Writing 'I Am an Engineer' in an Email to the Gov't

#110

Post by anigbrowl » Tue, Apr 25, 2017, 10:38 PM UTC

exabrial wrote: post #100

anigbrowl wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really ought to read the Board's side of this in the linked documents before jumping to multiple incorrect conclusions based on his version of events.

What? That he claimed to be an engineer? The board shouldn't exist as part of our government.

You realize this all started when Jarlstrom contacted the board to request that they launch an investigation of the city where his wife had received a traffic ticket?

'The board shouldn't exist' is a novel proposition. I guess you can't understand what interest the state might have in the ability to commission accurate land surveys and reliable public works. Almost makes you wonder how these things come into being in the first place, doesn't it?