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Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

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Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#261

Post by alexandercrohde »

passivepinetree wrote: post #242
alexandercrohde wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I believe that, however the spectre of terrorism is WAY overblown (more people die slipping and falling in the shower). So I do find it really unreasonable that it's used as an excuse to monitor our communication...

That's a super interesting stat. Do you have a source for it that I can use if I want to steal your quote?

I'm glad somebody asked for this. I'm going by this: http://reason.com/blog/2011/11/21/why-we-should-fear-bathtub...

I'm sure somebody out there will argue over the exact numbers, but the general point that terrorism isn't in the top 100 causes of death is unassailable.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#262

Post by DanBC »

_delirium wrote: post #246
richmarr wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I do not consider potential property damage to be a form of terrorism... So under your definition of terrorism someone needs to be injured? You're diverging from the dictionary a little there.

I don't find it useful to use the term beyond attacks aimed at actually terrorizing people. Stuff like suicide bombs in crowded public squares or metros, sarin gas releases, etc. A particular attack doesn't have to actually have any victims to qualify (it could be unsuccessful, or the outcome could be lucky), but it at least has to have that goal, or else how is it in any way "terror"? Some kinds of animal-rights att…

For clarity: the examples I gave were of organisations using fire to destroy property in order to persuade those businesses to stop trading, or to make it economically impossible for them to keep going.

I mentioned a group that stole a corpse from a grave.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/may/12/animalwelfare.top...

> The militants, including a vicar's son and a psychiatric nurse, led what they called a "holocaust" against a farm which bred guinea pigs for medical research. Jon Ablewhite, John Smith and Kerry Whitburn pursued a six-year hate campaign against Darley Oaks farm in Newchurch, Staffordshire. Whitburn's girlfriend, Josephine Mayo, was sentenced to four years for a lesser part in the campaign.

> Almost 100 people connected to the farm were targeted. Explosive devices were sent to some, mail threatening to kill and maim to others. There were attacks on homes, cars and businesses. The relentless campaign culminated in the theft of the body of Gladys Hammond, a close relative of the Hall family who ran the farm, from her grave in October 2004.

> For months, activists taunted the Halls, telling them the body would be returned if they closed the farm. The body was found only last week in woodland after Smith told the authorities where it was.

This is a campaign of violence, against people, for political reasons.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#263

Post by kbenson »

rhizome wrote: post #256
kbenson wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely acceptable to raise the question of the quality of the source if it's unknown. I, for one, know nothing about the World Socialist Web Site, or whether they have a habit of pushing stories with glaring omissions, unfounded additions or in the worst case, plain falsehoods. I do know to some degree about a fair number of larger news organizations, and while none are perfect, I trust a number of them to not…

You're essentially doubling-down on speaking from ignorance.

> You're essentially doubling-down on speaking from ignorance.

For me to double down, I would have to have been the author of the original comment, or even agreed with the manner it was delivered, no? I can't help but find your response ironic.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#264

Post by kbenson »

cies wrote: post #257
kbenson wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> let's count the MSM-sources that do not report on this matter It originated in the Guardian. That is a MSM outlet. That said, it originated in an opinion piece. What you have is something that the Guardian didn't have enough facts for to make a real story yet, and you are expecting other MSM sources to report on it, which means they would be reporting on a Guardian opinion piece, since that's all the evidence they…

> [MSM outlets are] actually expected to be accountable for what they report. Dunno man. I've seen stuff being reported by MSMs that was well below the professional threshold for me. Guardian seems to be one to better big outlets. But I have to give to credit for pointing out a very valid reason for other MSMs not reporting on it.

> I've seen stuff being reported by MSMs that was well below the professional threshold for me.

It's not perfect, but it exists. That's why you see retractions at major agencies[1]. That said, they don't generally feel compelled to retract conjecture, unless egregious, and conjecture is often misinterpreted as fact (likely sometimes because of purposefully vague presentation).

I still view an organization willing to make retractions as a level above one that isn't, even if the line between conjecture and fact is sometimes obscured (because they all do that, MSM or not).

1: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3891881/ns/about/t/nbcnewscom-corr...

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#265

Post by ue_ »

BearGoesChirp wrote: post #253
ue_ wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarcho-Communism is not an oxymoron; Communism is by definition a stateless and indeed classless society, as described by Marx and Engels.

While I feel this is deviating from the topic at hand, I have always had some questions about how a society could be classless. Even a kindergarten was made into a class society based solely on eye color after the teacher mentioned that eye colors meant certain things about a person. In a communist society, even if wealth were equal, there are many inherent factors that differ between people due to their unique genet…

The kind of class Marx was referring to is that of economic class, that is, class created as a result of the relationship to the means of production. Marx's view was that throughout history, various groups of people have definitive relationships to their means of sustenance - that is, who provides for them, so that they survive? In slave society, it was the slave master providing to the slave, for example. In today's society, the largest group of people, the proletariat, sustain themselves via the bourgeoisie employment in the form of wage labour.

I do not think that Socialism itself does away with the problems of humanity, but it does away with the power relationship between proletarian and bourgeois, and also all those other historical classes.

Communism isn't about equality of outcomes, it's about having the ability to apply your labour in the way which you are able to, in order to provide for yourself. Of course we must work to live (which is unfortunate, but Socialism helps mitigate that by voluntary means). It is totally fine, in my opinion, to have more than the other person next door. In a Communist society, the only reason why you would have more is because you worked harder, put more hours in, or were more efficient at what you do than the other person.

With regard to children, I don't know how to answer that question, and I don't know if there exists such a way by voluntary association which leads to such an outcome as perfect equal opportunity for reproduction. I would be very interested in finding a way, though.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#266

Post by ue_ »

anigbrowl wrote: post #255
BearGoesChirp wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I feel this is deviating from the topic at hand, I have always had some questions about how a society could be classless. Even a kindergarten was made into a class society based solely on eye color after the teacher mentioned that eye colors meant certain things about a person. In a communist society, even if wealth were equal, there are many inherent factors that differ between people due to their unique genet…

Well, this is the basic problem. Marx and Engels had a vision of society governed by the better angels of our nature, not to mention a relatively simple economic understanding of the world due to the technological limitations of their day. Karl Marx died in 1883 so while he was probably able to make guesses about how steam engines would be deployed in the future he never lived to see an actual automobile. Adam Smith'…

I don't think that most of Marx's analysis of capitalism falls flat in the face of modern developments; some of it of course do (such as his theorised 'Asiatic mode of production' which didn't exist) but for the most part I think a Marxian analysis is a cogent one, at least from what I've seen. Marx was in a good position to envisage how technology would develop, having seen the result of the industrial revolution himself. Marx intended for his analysis of capitalism to hold regardless of time frame; arguably, and indeed into the future beyond capitalism taking the form of the theory of historical materialism.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#267

Post by yAnonymous »

germanier wrote: post #227
yAnonymous wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the German justice going after it, that's the point. Why would they? They're not looking to punish anyone, but simply make unwanted statements disappear. Right now, they've appointed a private organization (Arvato) that belongs to the Bertelsmann group, which has a strong lobbying branch and is very close to the government. So basically, a private corporation is allowed to run its own show on all ends and it…

How do you explain the countless penalty orders and verdicts over internet posts that were issued in the last thirty years then? People were punished for internet posts that are against the law and will continue to be punished for internet posts. Arvato was contracted by Facebook to enforce their own terms of service and comply with the law. They are free to contract any company they like to operate on their platform…

The Arvato team was appointed by Facebook after the German government complained and pressured them into deleting hate speech, without further explanation what exactly that is. They now want to turn that pressure on social networks into law.

Like I said:

>Right now, many people are cheering, because it works in their favor, but they're too shortsighted to realize that it'll eventually be used against them, too.

The problem is that hate speech is the most generic term ever and can be used (and already has been used) to censor anything.

>People were punished for internet posts

Yes, I mentioned that, but they didn't start an investigation against all authors of deleted posts. Millions of posts and pages with millions of followers were deleted without any legal repercussions. If the post is not enough concern to start an official legal investigation, there's no legal ground to delete it.

You are defending censorship. Saying you sound like a government shill is putting it very nicely.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#268

Post by simonh »

sqeaky wrote: post #240
simonh wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>to make sure the populace really meant it Bizarre comment. Do you really think the election has a credible chance of overturning the result of the referendum? Or that this is the reason it's being held? Every time an elected government does something random poster on HN or elsewhere doesn't like, it's the end of democracy and a conspiracy of the elite. I voted Remain and still believe leaving the EU will harm Britai…

> The electorate are all grown-ups that had access to the same information that I do I am not sure I have ever heard such trust in the electorate. Isn't an uninformed electorate a huge problem in most western democracies?

Yes I believe an uninformed electorate is a significant problem, but you can force people to be interested in things, care about them or read the same magazines and web sites you or I do. But this is why I believe in representative democracy. Ideally you elect people you trust to know this stuff better than you and make sound judgments. But if you get it wrong, well that's why we have fresh elections every few years.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#269

Post by eru »

andy_ppp wrote: post #17
Kenji wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's futile now, just wait until they grow even stronger. It's now or never.

And do what exactly? Go to a protest? It doesn't work and never has; most people are content just by reading The Daily Hate. They already won.

You can still vote with your feet.

Re: Whistleblower uncovers London police hacking of journalists and protestors

#270

Post by eru »

GordonS wrote: post #155
coldtea wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't work and never has; You'd be surprised. Maybe read some history. Except if you mean: it doesn't work to guarantee an utopia or even that the things/rights/etc won by protesters are secured for eternity. Then again, nothing does.

It certainly has worked in the past, but in more recent times in a western 'democracy'? On February the 15th 2003, millions of people marched against the Iraq war across around 800 cities - with possibly as many as 1 million in London alone. This made it into the Guinness Book of Records as the largest ever anti-war rally. What happened? We went to war.

With a much smaller coalition than for the Afghanistan war---which had less demonstrations against it in eg Germany. So perhaps the amount of protesting did make a difference in some countries?
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